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From Fear to Freedom: How Derald Weber Built a Church That Runs without Him

Nov 2
42 min read

Updated: 4 days ago

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Every pastor prays for laborers. Fewer are ready to release them.


Derald Weber knows both sides of that story. His pastor, Anthony Mangun, released him into a calling that took him from evangelist to church planter to District Superintendent of the largest district in the UPCI. Years later, he handed his own pulpit to his son.


In this episode, Brother Weber unpacks his new book, Called Equipped Sent. We talk about the fears that keep pastors holding on, why dependency is not the same as legacy, and how a simple monthly Ministers’ Class in Lafayette sent leaders all over the world.


If you’re the pastor who can’t miss a Sunday without everything falling apart, this one’s for you. Success isn’t measured by how many attend. It’s measured by how many are sent.





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Transcript


When do you become a leader? Jesus says, when you have learned, you need to lead. >> Welcome to the Christian Leader Made Simple podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Franklin. And I'm an executive coach and the vice president of strategic leadership and operations for Pentecostal Resources Group in the United Pentecostal Church International. And if you're leading in ministry or business, then you likely know just how easy it is to get scattered, to lose your focus, and to start feeling ineffective. I've been there myself, and that's why I created the Christian Leader Self-Assessment. It's free, and in just 10 minutes, it'll show you exactly how to gain clarity and confidence as a leader. Go to ryanfranklin.org, or you can click the link in the description to take the assessment today. And so now, let's dive into today's episode. Every pastor I know prays for more laborers. We read Matthew 9, and we ask the Lord of the harvest to send them. And then God answers that prayer, and and something strange happens. We're tempted to hold on to them. We may want to hold on because we're afraid if What if they leave? What if they take people with them? What if they preach better than I do? Uh what if I'm not needed anymore? Here's the problem. When everything rises and falls on the senior pastor, then the pastor eventually burns out, and the church plateaus. The next generation of leaders sits in the pews, willing, likely capable, but never empowered. My guest today has spent his life doing the opposite. Daryl Weber has been a licensed minister with the UPCI since '84, 1984. He planted the Pentecostals of Lafayette in 1996 and pastored there for 25 years until his son Derek succeeded him in 2021. He's planted and revitalized four other churches as well. And today he serves as the district superintendent of our largest district in the UPCI, the Louisiana District. And it also happens to be my home district and I've been privileged to be a part of it for most of my life. Through a monthly ministers class at the Pentecostals of Lafayette, Brother Weber uh trained men and women who now serve as pastors, as church planters, evangelists, missionaries, music directors. And now as a brand new PRG product he's put that whole process into his new book called Equipped and Sent. Called Equipped and Sent. It's a practical year-long training resource. Comes with a uh workbook. But it's a practical year-long resource for pastors who want to raise up ministers and send them out. So, Brother Weber, welcome back to the show today. >> Hey Brother Ryan, so good to be with you guys and uh uh we give you great honor. Thank you for what you're doing with Christian Leader Made Simple and the podcast and the resources. Uh you're a great blessing to the kingdom and uh we've certainly missed you in Louisiana, but we understand uh from this podcast we better understand a little bit better how uh how leaving a place and following the will of God and being sent uh is very important. Thank you for having me. >> Absolutely and I appreciate you being here. Brother Weber, this, that was probably one of the hardest decisions in my life by far. Uh, I would say to leave a place that I was very comfortable, enjoyed serving in as POA, and uh, uh, the Louisiana district just being in the, in the district, there's just something special about the Louisiana district. And then, um, I would say some of the best food in all of the world is, uh, there's a couple of restaurants there in, in Alexandria, but particularly from your home or your the church that the, the town that you started your church, Lafayette, uh, I would say is probably the number one city for food in America, in the world. Would you agree? >> Well, you're not going to get a uh an argument from me. Uh we have more restaurants per capita in the city of Lafayette than any other city in the state of Louisiana. And not just more restaurants, the wonderful Cajun cuisine and >> Exactly. >> flavors of Yeah, it's it's a great blessing. So, when I moved north just an hour and a half to uh become the superintendent here in uh in central Louisiana, uh there is a a great difference just in our uh distance of an hour and a half in food. I can't imagine uh moving to St. Louis. Uh that must have been a challenge, but you do have a Cheesecake Factory. >> We We do have a Cheesecake Factory, but I promise you it's not Lafayette food. >> It That is true. >> We have scoured St. Louis looking for for a restaurant that would give some resemblance of it and I promise you there's nothing or at least nothing that I've found so far. I miss just good fried catfish. I mean, all you can really get here is fried cod fish. >> Well, you can remind God about that when uh when you're questing why did uh he pull you out of a place that had such good food. You can tell him that you might need to get more points now when you fast. >> Exactly. Exactly. >> credit. >> And uh I think the week the month before we left uh we we moved here June 1st. I think between probably mid-April and and June we ate it ate out crawfish. We probably spent more money than we should have, but we ate out crawfish about every third or fourth day just to try to fill up both legs with crawfish before we left. >> Yeah, we we definitely are spoiled here in Louisiana. >> Absolutely. Well, you wrote a new book um and I want to jump into that. It's uh there's a book and a workbook that goes along with it uh very practical. Um but I want to start out by uh talking about you a little bit. You started college planning to be a chiropractor. Um take us back to that youth service at Louisiana District Camp Meeting. Uh what happened during that service? >> Yeah, uh long time ago, 46 years. Uh you know, I was skinny. I was 18 years old. >> That was when I was born, '79. >> That makes me feel a lot better. Thank you. You have a way with words. Uh well, I as you mentioned, I was in college at LSUA uh here in Alexandria and I was in pre-med. I had already made big plans. I had already met with the president of Louisiana chiropractors. He was walking me through the process. I was on my journey. My my life was pointing in a direction. And uh it was Friday night camp meeting and uh we're having a a youth service over in what used to be called the Conquerors Hall that was across a field from our tabernacle. Mhm. And uh my pastor, your former pastor, Anthony Mangin, he was preaching that night. He 46 years ago he was an awful young man, too. Uh I was just 18. There was a powerful move of God, Brother Ryan, in that room. I'm not sure pastor even finished preaching before the Holy Ghost just fell in that room. Hundreds of young people were on their faces. There was a you know, a crowd of God during those types of moves of God. There was just a crowd of God that rose in that room and it was during that altar call when God did something in my life that I had never experienced before. Now, during the altar call, I was on the floor with all the young people where our faces in the the old carpet and and we are praying and all of a sudden I felt my pastor's hand on my back and I recognized his voice as he began to pray for me. There's just nothing like your pastor praying for you. I >> Nothing like it. >> Nothing. It it was so soothing, so >> I felt that hand many times. >> And and that's the power of the anointing on a pastor, a shepherd. And I felt that hand and then I heard that voice praying for me. Then all of a sudden, I heard him preaching on the platform. And that was kind of confusing because he still had his hand on me and was still praying for me out loud, but I heard him preaching at the same time from the platform. So, I opened my eyes and I looked at the platform and it was me on the platform preaching. >> Wow. >> I did not have a clue what I just had witnessed. I'd never seen a vision. I didn't understand what had just happened. I I didn't know what to do with that experience. So, I went to my shepherd and I said, I would like to meet with you as soon as possible. I just have something I need to share with you. Well, he said, well, come on this Sunday morning before church. I want to just come to my office, knock on the door. I'll be in there. So, I did. I I knocked on the door. He he opened the door and I he invited me in. And in that office, what now I'm 18 years old. In that office was Bishop G.A. Mangun, Sister Vesta Mangun, and Pastor Anthony Mangun. Like, my hall of faith, my hall of fame heroes in that room, and I am so nervous. I couldn't hardly talk. I'm shaking. Uh, you know, I didn't know how to tell them what happened to me. I didn't know what they would think. So, I just told him, I said, "You know, what happened Friday night at camp meeting?" Now, this was Sunday morning. And and immediately, they all started talking amongst each other. They recognized that God had done something powerful, and we talked a moment, and we we came to the conclusion that God had just called me to preach. Now, that call changed the entire course of my life. >> Mhm. >> And because I had a pastor who was willing to walk me down that path, equip me, and send me out, we are having this conversation today. Who knows if I had reached out to uh, what if I had not reached out to my pastor? >> Yeah. >> You know, and and if my pastor had not been willing to discuss this uh, or help me, you know, I may be popping backs today at a chiropractor uh, office. But, um >> making plenty of money, but not fulfilling totally the will of God or the perfect will of God. >> that's the key. So, there were so many things that were so important that were accomplished that pointed me in the direction that now I'm living out and have for the past 46 years. >> Well, I want to drive a little bit deeper into what you just said because in the book you write, "I'm here because my pastor released me." Now, that's more than just you telling them about it and then it happening. You're here because your pastor released you. Tell me more about that. >> Well, yes, as soon as Pastor Mangun confirmed uh, that God was calling me into ministry, and I could feel that. I may have been too scared to even utter it. First, I wasn't questioning that he called me. It was too real to shake. >> Mhm. >> Uh too too real and supernatural to try to skirt around. I wasn't questioning that he called me. I was questioning that he called me. Why me? >> Mhm. >> And so, uh you know, my family, I'm the first There were no ministers in my family. There were many quite the opposite of ministry in my family. My father was an alcoholic. My mother was a great lady. But Pastor Mangan, he understood where I was. He understood how I was feeling, my apprehensions, my questioning of that God would call me. >> Mhm. >> And uh he immediately enrolled me into uh a minister's class. Uh now, this was unique. Sister Mangan, when I walked in there, Sister Vesta Mangan was the teacher of the ministry class. And this this was our curriculum. >> I don't know this part of our POA history. I don't think I've ever heard that. >> 46 years ago, okay? So, I walk in there, she's they scheduled me, I had told me where to be, what time to be there. I walk in. Uh there were about three others maybe a little older than me uh that were in this class. And uh Sister Vesta was the teacher. We all sat around a table. And our curriculum, she opened up the Bible and we began going through the Bible verse by verse. Uh just amazing. I mean, where could you ever get that type of training? So, uh she began to pour into us. And >> Wow. >> of course, leaders found out that, you know, there was a calling and that we were in a class. And leaders, like youth leaders, uh jail ministry, all those types of leaders began to ask me to come and to speak. Uh I was involved in in different ministries already. I was in bus ministry. I was in orchestra. I was on the youth praise team. Uh but I was praying one day and uh I felt a genuine call from God to go to Bible college. Uh I I wasn't praying about Bible college, it wasn't even on my radar. Just like being called to preach wasn't on my radar. So these there were a lot of new things, a lot of new emotions, a lot of seeking God. And as I was praying one day, I I mean God just impressed upon me, you need to go to Bible college. And I really needed that uh because it helped me change my focus more on my ministry development. I I was not as disciplined as I needed to be and and that's what Bible college did for me. Uh when I told Pastor Mangun that I felt that God was calling me and I said, "Now Pastor, I'll do what you want me to do. Maybe you can interpret this feeling for me." He supported me all the way. You know, now he could have said and we mentioned this, he could have said, "I want you to stay here. I think that's best for you." >> Yeah. >> And I would have stayed at the Greater First United Pentecostal Church of Alexandria and I never would have had another thought about it. But Pastor Mangun understood something, Brother Ryan, that uh that some calling journeys will lead you away from the local church. And of course now over, you know, we uh you know, over 100 ministers have been released from POA and and uh they're serving in ministry somewhere around the world like me and like you. >> Mhm. >> And this can be a challenge for pastors, right? Because it seems like God usually calls the cream of the crop. >> Yeah. >> Who wants to let go? Now I I I understand him letting me go, but who would let you go? Who would let some of these tremendous leaders that have come from from POA, Bible study teachers, soul winners, >> So many. >> faithful, supportive. I mean, on fire for God. Who would want to let them go? I I believe God doesn't hesitate to call men and women in ministry where he knows there's a pastor who's willing to help them answer that call, equip them, and who is willing to send them into that call. Perhaps there are pastors that are saying, "I I don't understand why God doesn't raise up any ministers in our church or call any to preach." Maybe he knows that you will not walk them down this path. Maybe he knows that you will not release them. I I don't know all the answers, but I know that where pastors are willing, God will raise up ministers in those congregations. >> That's so true. And I've I've I've admired Bishop Anthony Mangun over the years and watched him, you know, like you said, many many many people have come through his ministry in that church. And I've I've admired his approach to it. He doesn't want them to leave. He >> Certainly. >> He He wants the He loves so deeply. He wants you to stay. He wants you to continue to work and build the POA. But when a person feels that it's it's time and and he feels that it's time for that person, um and that line that begins to line up, it's amazing how he gets behind you. Uh I can I can remember sitting in the truck just a few months ago with me uh having to tell him that I felt that it was the Lord's will. Uh It It ultimately We had many conversations prior to this for the prior to that one, but uh tears rolling down my face, tears rolling down his face. And he looked at me and he said, "Ryan, this is the will of the Lord. And I release you." And that's I mean, to hear those words, you know, it wasn't resistance. I'm I'm tearing up right now just thinking about it. It wasn't resistance. It was a release. And I'm so grateful for it to have a leader like that in my life that was willing to to do that. I know that you are as well. >> Oh, every day I thank God for my great pastor. I've had you of course started off with GA Invest in Magan and then when they retired they you know Pastor Anthony stepped in and started pastoring and he just automatically became our pastor and >> Yeah. >> I I had some of the most wonderful leaders. Kingdom minded is an understatement. >> Yeah. >> Now I personally know um of brother Anthony saying to a young man one time I I don't think that is the direction God has for your life. >> Mhm. >> And he the young man and myself didn't understand that at the time, but over time we saw how how divine that was a divine moment of a shepherd speaking into a life of a person and giving them direction and confirmation. And that person oh went on to be a great saint of God. I mean tremendous and you would know them is still in POA. >> Well, and and I know a few stories like that myself. >> Yeah, but thank God for a pastor who's in tune. Yeah. >> And you're not submitted until you get a no. You're not really submitted until you get a no and sometimes a no is needed and I'm thankful for a pastor that can discern that. >> You're right and we we both shared tremendous leadership. >> Absolutely. In 2021 big transition in your life. Your son Derrick succeeded you at the Pentecostals of Lafayette and has seems to be has done very very well. Um walk us through how that decision took shape and what that season taught you about yourself and about you as a leader. >> Well, a lot of folks that may know part of our story Many don't know that Derek was my assistant pastor for 9 years. >> Mhm. >> So So, the last few years of that nine, I recognized his ability to lead and possibly pastor. So, I recognized those things. So, I had uh prayed and I realized that God was setting things up for our future. I could feel it in my spirit and my prayer. And uh in about 2019, I set a meeting up with Derek and Holly, uh his wife, my daughter-in-law, and Karen, my wife. Karen was in that meeting. And uh we sat around a table and I presented what I feel God gave me as an a succession plan. Uh my plan. Now, that was about 2019. So, I said, "Look, when uh when uh I could see this coming in the future about 2023, I am going to uh transition to a semi-bishop, whatever that means, and Derek, you're going to become the senior pastor. I'm going to uh take the next several years after 23, and I'm going to for 2 years walk you down the path of pastoring. I'm going to hold your hand. We're going to learn this together. Uh we're going to do things together. I'm going to let you into places of pastoring that you've never been. Uh going to open up uh the books. We're going to let you get a uh a bird's-eye view of pastoring. Then after 2 years, uh then I'm going to totally step aside. You're going to have the total reins. Uh and I will be 63. That will be a good time for me to step aside. Karen and I had plans at 63 in 2025 to travel and uh establish our enlarged church growth ministry and uh assist churches in North America with the growth. And uh but obviously, God had other plans. So, in 2021, uh before we ever got to 23, and our plan was going to unfold in 21, I was elected as the district superintendent, and Derek and Holly became pastors just a couple of years earlier than we expected. Uh you know, what this taught me is that you should have a plan. >> Mhm. >> Because we were ready. We had a plan. It was in place. Even though God's plan moved this up several years, uh we still had a plan in place. Well, as a super >> Can I Yeah, yeah. Can I just pause right there about the plan? >> Most definitely. >> It's interesting how when we create a God-given plan, like we prayerfully create a plan, then God acts a lot of times. Right? >> Indeed. He honors He honors your faithfulness and your willingness to put forth an effort to accomplish something or to plan ahead. Uh he honors goals, goal setting. Now, it doesn't mean he always fulfills what you had planned. >> Right. >> But he loves you to plan. >> Yeah. >> Because that puts faith, and you've put forth prayer, and you felt direction, and then he has uh certainly uh he trumps all of our decisions. >> Absolutely. >> it up, change the entire plan. But because we had a plan, my point was because we had a plan, this didn't catch us by surprise. >> Mhm. >> Even though it came several years early, there was a plan that we could automatically move toward. Now, I see that God gave me the plan. I just had the wrong timing. He had the right timing. But we did have a plan in place. And as a superintendent, I see pastors they retire, they step aside all the time, and most of them, Brother Ryan, they do not have a succession plan. And of course, you know, there are way more woes when you don't have a plan. You know, there are many things. You put a church through a pastoral search that could last months. You take a chance of the church dividing because they may be voting on different candidates. Uh nothing can divide a church like two or three candidates uh applying for that church. You put a church through uh possibly a long period uh without a shepherd. That is dangerous. >> Well, and what we're seeing right now is is is even um some churches with that just can't hardly find a pastor, right? >> It It's It is It is uh a different world we're living in today and maybe because I'm a superintendent I'm seeing more of this and I'm seeing it from a different vantage point. Uh but but there are Now, I'm we obviously uh still find pastors for churches that didn't have a plan. >> Sure. >> obviously uh most I want to say I would love to say that all of them work out, but not even those with a plan all of them work out. But but I do see churches go through uh some turmoil. I've seen churches that did not have a plan went into a long pastoral search and families they lost families because families felt like they needed a shepherd. And there's there's Thank God for interim pastors and thank God for superintendents and presbyters that step in and help, but there's just it's just not the same. But you know what a succession plan it nearly always frees uh frees a church from those things that would happen. And uh uh thank God for those that do put together a plan and uh I think if if a pastor does not have a plan today what he should do, he should begin to pray. He should begin to seek God and ask God to give him direction. That's what I did. I I didn't have a plan. I didn't know what a plan looked like. Um I didn't see a book on how to put together a plan, but when I began to pray, it just began to open up to me and God began to give me directives and I would write those things down. If we will pray, if you'll pray as a pastor, God will give you direction for your church. He may not always give you the details that you want in that plan, but just write down what he gives you and start start something, some type of plan. >> Mhm. And so part of that plan um includes finding some people, investing in them, releasing people, things of that nature. Um you name the fears that pastor that pastors uh find with with releasing people. I I mentioned a couple of them at the beginning of the of this episode. What if they leave and take people with them? What if they preach better than I do? What if I What if I'm not needed anymore? Uh why do you think those fears hold so much power over people? Over leaders? >> Well, we're about to talk about things that we don't talk very much about, brother Ryan. Uh but most pastors deal with those thoughts whether we want to talk about them or not. They deal with those thoughts because we are human. You know, we've we've heard nightmare stories from fellow pastors. A young minister you invest in a young minister and and and pour into them, equip them, only to have that minister move across town, start a church without approval, and uh they've, you know, they've made so many friends and made so many connections and probably in some level of leadership in the mother church, that folks follow them to this new church. It happens. It and it has happened. And you know what? It will happen again. >> Mhm. >> Uh it's not right. It shouldn't be done that way. Uh and something inside a human pastor says, I I I don't want to release a minister because I'm going to end up getting hurt and it's going to hurt our church. I'm not going to say that those thoughts do not enter the thought process of a pastor, but we can't live out the will of God and the plan of God afraid of what may happen. And if you Hey, and if you release enough of them, sooner or later some are not going to work out. That's just the way it is. Uh but as pastors, we don't own the church. It's God's church. You know, we're to protect the church with all of our strength, but not to the extent of holding back men and women who have a legitimate call of God on their life. When we think of the responsibility that's in our hands, that God has placed ministry in our hands, future ministry, what a what a responsibility. Because when you release them, there will be those who go forward. They won't be the nightmare stories. They will go forward, they will be mightily used of God, and they will bring great fulfillment. In as a pastor, there were two things that brought me great fulfillment that stand far above all the rest of the things that are connected to pastoring. Number one was when somebody was saved. Nothing brought any greater fulfillment. The second is when somebody answered the call to preach, and you were allowed to place your hands upon their life, guide them, guard them, train them, and release them. And to watch them go and to to become evangelist or whatever, a pastor, a youth pastor, uh someone working and sharing leadership globally as yourself. What a great fulfillment that was as a pastor to me. And and we cannot bypass that because of something that may happen. >> Yeah. So, you write in your book and Bishop Anthony Mangin has exemplified this so well. You have exemplified this so well. Um but you say that if your work doesn't outlive you, you didn't build a legacy. You built dependency. You're a superintendent. You see a lot of a lot of things, you know, from from day to day that we may we never never hear about, never see. What does dependency look like when you see it up close? What is it What is it And and what does it cost the pastor and his church? >> Well, it's easy to identify a church that's a dependent church. Their survival, their identity, even their daily operation, it tied almost exclusively to the presence of their pastor. Speaking from a leadership standpoint, a dependent church operates under a a hub and spoke model. It's where the pastor's at the center of everything. And you know, here's some visible signs for instance of a of a dependent church. Number one, you know, there's a bottleneck in decision making. The pastor does not trust anyone else with leadership, with decision making. No major minor decisions happen outside the pastor's office or his direct approval. And there's a bottleneck. Committees can that church never gets beyond that pastor because he does not allow anyone else to make a a decision. Another is it has a personality-driven culture. The church's identity is entirely wrapped up in the pastor's identity instead of the church being known to the community, it's the pastor is known to the community. And I'm not saying that you the pastor can't be a great orator. He can't be an incredible charisma charismatic pastor. But I'm saying if the church uh if the pastor outshines the church, what does the community really see? You also find low lay leader development. You know, church members they they view themselves strictly as as consumers rather than owners of what God is doing in that church. If the pastor doesn't organize an event, then the event doesn't happen. >> Yeah. >> And then dependent a dependent church will nearly always have a lack of succession planning. Nearly always because there's no clear pipeline of developing leaders. They're you know, they're they're not developing uh new leaders for the young youth leaders. They're not developing future pastors any ministry that can come up and fill those those uh you know, positions. Uh so it it's a dependent church. It has lack of succession planning. And this comes at a great cost to a pastor. >> Mhm. >> You know, usually 99%of these pastors experience severe burnout. Uh they experience chronic exhaustion. They can't take vacations. You know, we we used to think it was a virtue to say I haven't taken a vacation in 15 years. You know, I haven't missed a Sunday in 20 years. That that doesn't that's that's that's not a virtue. >> No. >> That that is that's a dilemma. That is that is a uh dependency upon you instead of your church being able to reach outside of your own ability. Uh you know, it it's without realizing the pastor takes on this savior complex. I I faced it as a young pastor. You know, there weren't a lot of pastoring books that I got my hands on in in the apostolic world. It was we're with you. God bless you. And we parachute in. We start this church. And thank God for all of the programs and the support teams and mechanisms and resources. Oh, it's so wonderful. >> Yeah. >> But, uh you know, without realizing a pastor can take on this savior complex, you know, where the pastor's forced into an unhealthy psychological position where they have to be the rescuer, they have to be the counselor, they have to be the administrator, uh all at once. And And that leads to isolation. And ironically, the pastor's hard work is erased quickly. When they leave the ministry they spent decades building, it often shrinks, it disappears. Meaning their life's work does not outlive them. It's not a legacy, it's a dependency. >> Yeah. I see it uh the whole time I'm hearing you talk I'm talk-I'm thinking of a of the lid. It's It's It just places a significant lid on that church and their ability to impact not only the the people inside the church, but particularly the people outside of the church, and it it's uh it's to me it's tragic when I see that. >> Well, well, and And not only affects the pastor, it affects that church. Uh they they are stunted in their growth because they never learn to exercise their own gifts. >> Exactly. >> There's suc-There's no succession plan. Uh you know, when the pastor leaves, retires, passes away, the church enters this this crisis. Uh attendance drops, giving plummets. I I've seen it personally. Uh the church often enters this prolonged period of infighting and grief because their hub the pastor is no longer there, and it it just it just falls apart. >> Yeah. >> But, you know what? The reverse of a dependent church is what we really should be talking about. It's that legacy church. >> Absolutely. >> where there's shared power, leadership decisions are shared uh amongst capable, mature leaders. Culture of disci- discipleship. That's important. Members view themselves as active members, not just consumers. They're equipped to teach, they're equipped to serve, they're equipped to lead others. It's that legacy culture. Uh budgets, programs, operations, they run smoothly regardless of who's in the pulpit. Uh because this is all about God and this is for God, it's not about man and it's not for man. >> Yeah. >> Uh you know, and and then there's this enduring vision that it seems like the the pastor steps aside, that vision just keeps carrying on even another pastor could come in with fresh vision, but there is such a foundation uh that it outlives that that pastor's uh that pastor who has stepped aside. >> Yeah. And I think about your your situation in Lafayette. One, you would not have had the success had you not built that type of culture, but two, there's no way that you could have have transitioned in the um 2 years earlier in the way that you did with such with such success had you not built that culture in advance. >> It and it it is true, you it's it's like a building. Uh it's work, it's planning, it's labor, it's repeating over and over the with principle and excellence and trusting God's plan. And of course uh having to do with my book, there's an active uh succession pipeline in a in a successful church, a legacy church like that. The church is constantly identifying, mentoring, and preparing the next generation of leaders. That's what the book talks about. It's raising up, it's trusting. >> Let's talk about that a little bit a little bit uh let's go into that a little bit. Um you you point to Mark 3:14 in what you call the model of Jesus, gather, train, and send. Um I'm assuming that's where called, equipped, sent came from. Great book cover, by the way. I think uh uh our PPH team did a and you did a great job of creating that >> They did. Excellent. >> that book cover. Looks sharp. Um but uh walk us through that model. Tell us where you saw it play out it in Lafayette when you were there. Would love to hear more about that. >> Well, Mark 3:14, it you know, this is the beauty of the word of God. How many times do you read a verse and every time you see something different or you notice the scripture around it, but you never notice it even though you read it and read it and read it. Well, this was one of those verses, Brother Ryan, for me. When I read this verse, I saw the three dynamic steps, the process in the hands of Jesus of calling or gathering ministry, equipping them or training them, and then sending them. Jesus he was fully God and fully capable of accomplishing ministry by himself if he wanted to do that. Instead, he modeled something even more powerful than doing it alone, and that is multiplication. Because multiplication was remember his goal, seek and save the lost. That's why he came. So, with if he did it by himself, I'm sure God could do anything, but he felt that multiplication, putting this in the hands of more people, would spread the gospel farther and faster than he would alone. First, look at the word called. Uh Mark 3:14, and he ordained 12. Jesus called Simon Peter, James, John while they're fishing. They're they're fishing. He said,"Follow me and I'll make you fishers of men."He called Matthew while he was tax collecting. Uh he called Philip with an invitation. He said,"Follow me."Mark, he used words uh ordained. He ordained 12. The the Greek word for ordained is poieo. It means to make. He called them to make them something else. Something besides fishermen, something besides tax collectors, something besides chiropractors. When he calls, he ordains, he poieo, he makes them something else. He called us from being focused on our agenda, our plans, our aspirations, and he turns us toward focusing on preaching the gospel. God made or remade our future. Poieo, to make. That's what a call does. And and it's where a pastor comes to help them discern what God is saying. Is this call temporary or is it part of a long-term divine assignment? Is this a call to maybe go deeper in service in the church or is this a call to preach? So, a pastor steps in during this time and helps a minister or someone feeling that call to discern that call. Isn't that what Eli did in 1 Samuel? Remember, God kept waking Samuel up, so he'd run over to Eli, his pastor, and he would say, "Here I am."And Eli said,"I didn't call you. Go back to bed."He did that three times. And Eli told Samuel, finally realized, you know, something's happening here. He says,"That's the Lord calling you."So, he says,"Next time he wakes you up and calls you, just say, 'Speak, Lord, for thy servant heareth.'" And the next time God called Samuel, he said,"Speak, Lord, for thy servant heareth."And God began to speak to Samuel. But Eli helped young Samuel realize and recognize and respond to God's voice. And that, I believe, Brother Ryan, is the duty of the pastor. Pastor is a guide to help those God is calling to discern what God is saying to them. The second step Jesus equipped or trained those he called. Mark 1 3:14 again, he ordained 12 that they should be with him. That phrase that they should be with him, it speaks of relationship, intentionality. Those disciples, they they uh they observed how Jesus prayed. They observed how he handled criticism, how he loved outcast, how he responded under pressure. Ministry is caught more than it's taught. They need to see your heart as a pastor. They need to see your heart, not just your message. Um Jesus didn't simply teach them. He demonstrated what ministry looked like. They watched him cast out devils, heal the sick, preach to the multitudes. This this wasn't merely a classroom training and that was all to it. It was hands-on in in the moment ministry lessons. And over time, they moved from observers to participants. They would begin to preach. They began to cast out devils. There were a few hiccups, but uh you know, they were learning. They prayed for the sick. And as it says in Luke 9, they ministered in his name. So, when you get to the final set uh of the elements, Jesus sent or released them whom he trained. This is what the scripture says, he ordained the 12 that they should be with him. That he might send them forth to preach. And after spending time with Jesus and participating in ministry alongside Jesus, the disciples were sent. This this moment, it marked a shift in their identity from a learner to a leader. And you know, you I guess there's another book. When do you become a leader? Jesus says when you have learned, you need to lead. >> Hey leaders, I want to take a quick second and tell you something that I'm really excited about. If you're looking for practical biblical resources to help strengthen your leadership, your home, or your church, you need to check out Pentecostal Resources Group or PRG. From leadership development to ministry tools to discipleship resources, PRG is working to help leaders and churches move forward with greater health, clarity, and effectiveness. So, head on over to pentecostalresourcesgroup.com and explore the resources available today. And now, let's get back to our podcast. >> And from receiving to carrying. So, uh there's a powerful scripture. I I won't deviate too much here, but the Bible says,"And Jesus pushed away from the table, took up the towel, and he began to wash the disciples' feet."There's a time where we got to push away from the table. We have been fed enough. We have been received. So, nobody receives like Apostolic Pentecostals. We have been fed, we have been taught, we have we have felt the presence of God, we we have been at the table a long time. It's time to push away from that table and let God use you. Take up the towel, serve. If success is not measured by how many uh you know, what if success is not measured by how many attend your church, but by how many you send? >> Yeah. >> Well, that's on the back of my book, but there's a difference between gathering attendees and equipping laborers. Uh you know, Matthew 9, Jesus didn't say the pews are few are few. He said the laborers are few. You know, healthy churches aren't they're not just known uh to be relentless bringing people in, but all healthy churches are also known for their efforts of sending people out. Yeah. It's what Jesus did. He called, he equipped, and he sent. >> That's very good. Excellent. And I'm just soaking it in cuz I love it. I love it. Uh take us back from a Let's Let's just go practical here. Take us back to um the ministers class that you had in Lafayette where this was birth. >> Sure. >> How did it start? How did How did What did a typical month look like? >> Well, I and I've shared so much of this. Uh I would be I would teach a growth conference or I'd be in a district teaching preaching some conference of ministry and they would line up after the conference to say, you know, I've shared something about the ministers class and how we raised ministers. I'd move on to something else I was preaching on or teaching on and they would say, do you have any resources? Can I get those resources? I sent out a bunch of hodgepodge things I've used just to so many pastors and that's how this this book came about is because I realized what we did in Lafayette, it's a resource that we don't have a lot of. So, when I pastored Lafayette, God started dealing with with hearts of of men and women in our congregation and they'd approach me and they would let me know, you know, I don't understand what's going on. Sort of like me back in that day when I saw that vision. You know, not everybody's going to see a vision, but I guess God knew he had had to give me a vision to get me into ministry. I just didn't have much much faith in myself. But they would approach me and say, you know, God's dealing with me. This is something that's happened in my prayer time or something. So, I started a monthly ministers class. In the beginning, we had maybe three, four, five men, women there in the class. Eventually, that class grew to over 30 men and women. I broke the class eventually into three groups. Those that were just just at the base level trying to discern whether this call is a call to preach or not. Then I had those that were sure of their call and they were already answering that call. And those that were already operating in their call, maybe they're involved in ministry, maybe they're even licensed ministers. So I had three groups of of ministers that would meet. And in that monthly class I would have three of them speak for 10 minutes each. And they would choose any topic out of the Bible and they would speak. And after they spoke, all the class would critique them. But the class became very careful on what they said because they knew they would be standing up there, you know, pretty soon. So but it helps. It it brought a group together, loving one another, praying with one another, and teaching them about ministry. Then after those three spoke, I would always teach a lesson on a a topic pertaining to ministry. Let me give you some of the lesson topics, for instance. Recognizing the call of God. The a consecrated life, you know, talking about prayer, fasting, studying the word. What God sees as great. Talking about serving. Submission and authority. If you're going to be in ministry, you need to understand these things. God's passion, souls. Trusted with truth. And of course we we talked about you know, sermon building, homiletics. I even taught a lesson on preaching mannerisms because we want to be the best in the pulpit representing God's word and the gospel as we can. You know, we don't want to have bad habits in the pulpit saying um um um or you know, a nervous something we do nervously over and over while we're speaking, you know, it's distracting. So I was trying to train them on to be the best they could be at what God's called them to do. And at times we had split sessions. You know, we had ladies in the class. So, sometimes my wife would take the ladies, I would take the men. And even a guest speaker that I would have on Sunday, you know, usually Sunday evenings, that was when we held our ministers class. And guest speaker who I'd had preached Sunday morning would stay over and speak to our ministers that night. I also, this is very important. I have a lot of questions about this uh from ministry. Pastors asking what what did I ever deal with doctrine? Well, doc-I had an entire month I called doctrine emphasis month. You can do it different ways. We just chose to do it as a a church body. Every Sunday morning of that month, I had a guest speaker, a well-known speaker in the United Pentecostal Church. They would come and uh one Sunday be on the Godhead, maybe the next Sunday on the doctrine of salvation, the doctrine of holiness, the doctrine of the atonement, the doctrine of consecration, maybe the doctrine of eschatology, the last days. And all our ministers were required to be there and to take notes. I also handed out, and this is in the book, there's a there's a sample uh what I called the uh monthly accountability calendar. >> Mhm. >> Our ministers were required to on that calendar mark down that they prayed at least 20 minutes a day, uh read at least one chapter of the Bible per day, fast at least 3 days per month, witness and invite people to church. They had to write it down. Uh be involved in a Bible study uh uh if either going into a new one or coming out of an old one, but somewhere they have to have been a Bible study. And they had to check these things off on that accountability calendar. They handed them in each month uh at the beginning of each month, and I would give them a new blank calendar that to fill out. I constantly told them,"I expect more out of you as a minister than anyone in this congregation. Uh if I was going to promote them in front of the church as ministers and say, "You can trust this person. You can go to them for prayer, you can go to them for encouragement. These are men and women of integrity, then they needed to be examples in their private and lives and public lives. I held them high to a high level of accountability. A much higher level than the than the church member, even other leaders. Every fall we would set aside four Wednesday nights where our ministers would speak. Usually November, December. You know, when there's a lot of different things happening. I would have three speakers per night. They would speak three They would speak 10 minutes each. And I also would have the ministers and the ministers class in those services make the announcements, pray over the needs, receive the offering, introduce the speakers. And as individuals they would serve in these environments, they would grow confidence, they would their gifts would emerge, their calling of God would become clear and and more established in their lives. You know, it's it's somewhat humorous, but it's the process, you know, making mistakes and you know, the hiccups of early ministry, but that's the training period and it's so important. But that's somewhat in a nutshell what our monthly ministry class looked like. And Brother Robert uh two great resources here, a book and a workbook. Tell us a little bit about how uh a pastor or a assistant pastor or whatever could pick this up and immediately begin to use it. Can you just speak to that just a bit? Well, let's say first the pastor, that would be the obvious. >> Mhm. >> The first several lessons in that book are to the pastor. >> Okay. >> It's talking about the power of multiplication, building this pipeline of leadership in your church. Uh And also in those first two chapters, it's it's also talking about how to help someone answer the call, how to walk them down this path. It's sort of prepping a pastor and getting ready to start a group, or if he's already or she is already leading a ministry group, then the last 12 chapters are lessons they could actually teach. Uh probably 45 minutes to an hour lessons. They could you know, certainly arrange them how they would like, but they're one year if you did one month of one class per month, then this would be one year of full of lessons. Uh as someone who is not a pastor, uh how can this book help them? Well, the lessons in this book are tremendous lessons on ministry, uh focusing on the things that you know, the topics we had talked about leading you have truth placed in your hands. It's this is you're in ministry. This is talking about submission. It's talking about your consecration life. It's many things like that. What a pastor looks for in a minister. Uh those types of things and I think all ministry would benefit from from reading this book. >> And so a pastor can do this as you did in Lafayette and just take the lessons, teach the lessons. Participants can use the excuse me, let me turn it around, the workbook and be able to um to work through those lessons in more detail with discussion, writing, etc. Um and if let's just say uh there's even a lay leader that wants to do a small group, get some guys together and um basically do the same thing, but learn together with with the guys. I would assume they could also pick this book up and the workbook up and just do a small group style of of book with this. Would you think that would be appropriate? >> Most most definitely. Whether they are called to preach or called into ministry in other areas as a leadership, I think these lessons can be you know, you could just change some of the wording where it says preach. You could change the word, because leadership is requiring much of the same; and that is, you know, all of those those qualities that you're looking for in a minister: you know, their consecration life, their their their public life. You want them to pray, you want them to publicly give. You want them to publicly worship. All of these things pertain not just to a preacher. We would hope that they would pertain to to everyone. You know, a personal evangelism, to be an encourager, loyalty to leadership, you know, reaching out to guests, being soul winners, Bible study teachers. This is something that that all leaders would greatly benefit from. >> Couple more quick questions. We don't have to spend a lot of We don't have to go into a lot of depth with this, but just a couple quick questions that's on my mind. When you're watching a young minister, let's just say back in your Lafayette days, what tells you that they're one ready to be invested in and then on the flip side, what tells you that somebody is ready to be sent? >> Well, we've got to be very careful here because we know God's doing his greatest work right in in the interior of a person. You know, the scripture says uh that uh you know, God looks at the heart, man looks at the exterior. And we always take that and we use only God sees the heart and we focus on that. But there is that other side. The only thing we could see, the only thing we can discern from without the spirit of discerning is to look at a person's life. >> Yes. >> So, when you look at a person's life, that's all God gives us. He does not give us that that capability of looking at the heart and the intent. He just gives us actions and outward living. So, when we look at a person, uh I want to be careful that I don't say I can identify somebody who's called to preach because I have been so off sometime. I could look at that person and inside I'd say,"That person would never be able to preach in this gospel."And I could look over here and say,"This person, oh, they would be prime a prime candidate to be a minister."And I would be so far off. This one would would end up doing something over here in the kingdom of God, and I'd missed it. And this one, who I said couldn't probably do anything, and that doesn't sound like much faith, but I'm talking about human pastors and the way we think. That person excelled, you know. So, we've got to be careful that we don't try to judge what we see by what we see, because God's doing something much deeper many times. If you could have seen me in those early days, I was a wreck. I was nervous. I couldn't I could not speak in front of people. That was my greatest fear. Uh It was It was awful. It was awful. I was raised in a home that had some issues in my home with my alcoholic father, so I had relational issues. And so, I just I just clammed up in public. I I didn't say anything. I did my best work doing sports. That's how I could be active. But I had to speak to somebody. I'm sure Pastor Megan looked at me and said,"Oh, Lord. Are you sure?"But here I am. I I'm not saying I've achieved everything. But I have followed the will of God and the plan of God in my life. And thank God for the way he has used me in whatever way that would be. So, we've got to be careful that we don't just judge situations by what we see. Sometimes God is taking these young men, young ladies, and it could be older men and older ladies through the kingdom process, and you're just to be the person that is there to help them recognize the call, help them recognize this is your next step. I'm going to equip you. I would rather equip somebody and point them in the right direction and be wrong than to not equip somebody, not point them in the right direction, and be wrong. >> So, I don't want to miss it at all. But, I think I think that the process is in our hands. We do all we can to help raise that person to be a great leader, to be a great Christian, and then let that call continue whatever God's call is on their life to take them to that next level. >> Yeah. And I love the the thought in your voice. You used you as an example, but you know, I've always witnessed that you allow people to fail forward, and you talk about that in your book. You're you don't expect perfection. There's an integration of the good and the bad and you allow people to fail forward and and that not disqualify them. You know, of course, we've got those things that do disqualify, but anything you want to speak to to that? >> Well, I believe I believe you know, the Lord gave us the word of God so we could see the people he used. Oh my goodness. You know, when Jesus sent these disciples, they were not perfect. They proved it right there in scripture. I'm sure many more things were done that we would have gone,"Oh my, I can't believe that's an apostle, a disciple." >> You know, you know, this sending didn't mean they were perfect. It meant that they were prepared. >> Mhm. >> And they were trusted. And there there's a key with with us being pastors. We've got to make sure we prepare them. Jesus did. He prepared them. But we've got to make sure we trust them. Jesus trusted people he knew would fail. In fact, he told one, "You're going to deny me. It's just a matter of time.""Oh, no, never deny you. I'll never"He knew, but he trusted the call enough and the preparation enough that it would take them through the process. You know, Jesus knew Peter would deny him. He knew Thomas would doubt him. Yet he still sent those men. Sending people's not about perfection. It's about preparation. >> Yeah. >> If you'll wait until If you wait till somebody's flawless, you'll never release anybody. You know, trust God in the work. Uh you know, in and work with these folks. Trust God uh because he worked with you. He worked with me. You know, spiritual sons and daughters may not minister exactly as we would, but if they're grounded in truth, God God'll use them. >> Yeah. Absolutely. Um so, as as we wrap up here, bring come to a close, you've got a pastor out there that may be listening to this, and they have a few people in their congregation sensing a call. They know that they do. Um and they hear this, it sparks something in them. What What does that pastor need to do in the next 30 days? >> First, buy the book. >> Yes. >> That's the first thing I would do if if I had that book, oh my goodness. I would be so far so much farther ahead at that at that time in my life and my ministry. But buy the book. There aren't many resources out there. This is a great resource to a to uh to to start with. And here's why. The first two chapters, as I mentioned, it's going to help a pastor know which direction to take, understand the process. And I would begin I would begin a monthly class or a quarterly class. Do something with those that are feeling a call to minister. You know, the last 12 chapters as we talked about earlier, they're lessons that you could use. They're already prepared. You could You could use them, change them around, fix them to where they are are coming feel like they're better suited to your ministry and the way you teach. But in between those lessons, I would give them assignments. And I'm just telling you things that I did, not things that you should do, but things that we did. A list of needs to help you pray about. You know, give these these these that are feeling a call to minister, maybe they're already operating in their ministry. You know, I I had them visit shut-ins. I said,"I need You need to go see sister so-and-so. She hasn't been able to go to church. She may never be able to come back to the physical church building. I want you to go visit her, pray with her."Had so many testimonies about that. The shut-ins would text me, "Pastor, oh, thank you for sending so-and-so and so-and-so. They would pray. There was a move of God."You know, accompany Let them accompany you to pray at a hospital. Going to pray for somebody. Pull them close to you when they're praying when you're praying in the altar, pastor, and let them hear you how you pray for somebody. You know, have them open with prayer at smaller events. Maybe it's at a prayer meeting. Just Brother so-and-so, Sister so-and-so, they're going to open prayer for us today. You know, give them resources that build their leadership. It could be books. Brother Ryan has some great leadership books. Online courses. >> Thank you. >> Podcast. You know, help them grow. You know, put together this accountability system where they are accountable to you as pastor. And again, there are some of those resources in our in the book. But most importantly, pour into them. At least at the very least you get a better equipped and mature saint of God at the very least, but you may just get the next pastor of your church. Or you may get an evangelist who ignites revival in thousands of churches. Or you may get a missionary that reaches a nation. Or they may become the district superintendent or the general superintendent or the vice president strategic leadership and operations of the Pentecostal resources group. Only God knows who he has placed in your hands, pastor. Only God knows. >> Such great advice. Thank you for that, brother Weber. Uh anything else before we wrap up here? >> What a what a privilege, uh brother Ryan. It's good always good to be with you and you know, our relationship goes back uh you know, a lot many years at POA and we've had some good conversations of ministry over the years and I'm so thankful for the way God is using you and uh your good family, your wife. You are so uh you're you're so qualified in this day that we live in to lead the charge where God has called you and I'm thankful that God's hand is on you and your family. >> Well, thank you so much for that and thank you for this hour and plus a few minutes of uh of your time today. I know you're very busy man. Always have people calling you. Uh, I know what that job that you have in in the boot uh, represents and how difficult it can be. And so, uh, I don't take this lightly, that you would take the time to do this. And I just want to mention that if people want to get this book called Equipped, sent, um, you can go to pentecostalpublishing.com and, uh, it's available there. I will also put a link in the show notes, but I would encourage every one of you um buy a couple of copies of these and um start small groups, get get uh get get people that are called equipped and sent in your church and it's going to make a huge difference. Thank you so much, brother Webber. >> Thank you, brother Ryan. An honor to be with you today. >> And so this concludes our show today. My name is Ryan Franklin. Thank you so much for joining us on the Christian Leader Made Simple podcast.


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