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Listen to This BEFORE Casting Vision for Church Growth in 2026 | Dr. David Bernard

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In this conversation, Ryan Franklin and Dr. David Bernard explore the concept of visionary leadership within the church. Dr. Bernard shares his insights on how to discern a God-given vision, the importance of unity among leaders, and the role of effective communication in fostering a culture of growth. He emphasizes the significance of apostolic identity in church growth and offers practical advice on handling disagreements and encouraging spiritual depth. The discussion culminates in a call for leaders to focus on their core group and to embrace servant leadership as a means to fulfill their God-sized vision.





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Transcript


Do we really wanna build a church with our own ability, with the best expertise the world has to offer or Christianity has to offer? Or do we wanna build it on the miracle working power of God? I'll take the miracle working power of God every time.


Welcome to the Christian Leader Made Simple Podcast. I'm your host Brian Franklin and I've been in pastoral leadership at the Pentecostals of Alexandria for over 20 years and I'm an executive coach helping Christian leaders grow with clarity, confidence and balance. And if you're leading in ministry or a business, then you likely know just how easy it is to get scattered, to lose your focus and to start feeling ineffective. I've definitely been there myself and that's why I created the Christian Leader Self Assessment. It's free and in just 10 minutes it'll show you exactly how to gain clarity and confidence as a leader. Go to ryanfranklin.org or click the link in the description to take the assessment today. And now let's dive into today's episode.


Welcome to the Christian Leader Made Simple Show. I'm your host, Ryan Franklin and I'm grateful that you have joined us today to kick this year off. We have a very special guest on the show, Dr. David Bernard. And if you're stepping into the new year, wanting clarity and direction and a renewed sense of God's purpose in your leadership, then I believe that this conversation is going to serve you well.


Today we're going to dive into the heart of what it means to create a God sized vision for church growth. And not just strategies, but the spiritual insight and the unity that's required to see that vision really take root in a person's life and an organization.


Dr. Barnard serves as the General Superintendent of the United Pentecostal Church International, leading a global fellowship of ministers and churches around the world. And before his role as superintendent, he spent years pastoring and building a local work in Austin, Texas. And this congregation is known for its remarkable growth and impact.


He's the author of more than 30 influential books on theology and leadership and apostolic life, many of which have shaped leaders across generations, including my own life. His ministry has taken him to over 80 nations, giving him a very unique perspective on global church growth and cultural diversity.


He's widely respected for his doctrinal clarity, his balanced leadership and commitment to developing strong, healthy, apostolic leaders. And so, with all of that said, welcome to the show, Dr. Bernard.


Well, thank you very much. I hope I can do a good job after all that introduction.


Well, I've been looking forward to this. And I'm so grateful that you've agreed to jump on here today and have a conversation.


So our main subject today that I've asked you to talk about is vision. And when you look back over your ministry journey, what were those key moments that have shaped how you now understand a God given vision?


Well, certainly I would say my call to preach was significant. Next, my call to go to Austin to start a church there was significant and probably the third thing, not necessarily a total ministry, but something that really shaped me was not a specific event, but a gradual awareness of the need and the opportunity to plant daughter works.


I could also mention how I got into writing books, how I was asked to start be the founding president of Ursham Graduate School. And then I was asked to be district superintendent of a new district, South Texas. And then of course, being elected as general superintendent.


All those were key inflection points. But as far as vision, the first three I mentioned probably are the most significant.


Yeah. Just curious, if you don't mind going there just for a moment, I'd love to know what drove you to want to write all of those books.


Well, the first book was In Search of Holiness. My dad asked me. I was in law school. I didn't feel a call to preach, but he said there's no book on holiness in the Pentecostal movement. Would you take your mom's notes that she taught at Bible college in Korea? You know how to write. Would you turn this into a book?


So I spent about a year doing that and it became a bestseller. And then I began to realize that there's great need. We had some books on oneness, but not one book that would cover all aspects of the subject.


We didn't have a book on salvation, the New Birth. We had booklets and tracts. We didn't have a commentary on Romans, which is a key book for Christian theology and especially for apostolic theology.


We didn't have a comprehensive book on church history as in the history of Christian doctrine. We didn't have a book on interpretation of Scripture.


And even more recently, I wrote a book on apologetics, anchor points.


So what drove me was the need and the fact that I was able to do it, apparently. And after the success of the first book, then I realized we can do this.


But it didn't start with an initiative of me. It started with as many things. I was asked to do something and then I grew into it.


And that's what happened with Ursula Graduate School of Theology, another example.


Yeah, well, that's tremendous. Your books have made such an impact on a movement. And again, I just want to say how much they've impacted my life. I've read many of them.


So I would say that pastors oftentimes they wrestle with whether vision is from God or whether it's just their personal desire or dream.


And I have my own opinions on that.


But is that separate? Is it different? Is it kind of one and the same?


I'd love to hear your perspective on how a leader discerns the difference.


Well, there's certainly an overlap because I do believe there are defining moments where God speaks to you very directly.


But in many cases, he allows our own personality and our own choices, our own preferences to shape what we do.


It's not just like there's one perfect will for your life.


It's going to be handed down from heaven.


It's an interplay.


God has given us a brain.


He expects us to use it.


So I look for things such as: Is there a need? Do I have the opportunity to meet that need or contribute significantly? And do I have the ability?


And so if all those three things align, then maybe that's a strong indication that I should get involved.


So is there really a need? Do I have the opportunity to do something significant about that need? And do I have the ability to contribute significantly to that need?


So it may not be a voice from heaven.


Now, I would also say in the process of discernment,


of course prayer is absolutely vital,


checking your motives is vital,


and if there is a personal interest that's involved,


having some ethical guidelines already in place


that you just won't violate,


even though in a particular case it would be tempting


to fudge here,


you've already set some guidelines before you had


a personal interest,


and you stick by those guidelines when you do have


a personal interest.


And I say prayer sometimes,


I pray this prayer:


I think periodically we need


to as leaders have


a time of prayer


and say lord purge me


of impure motives;


I think I want


the right thing,


but I want


to make sure


I want it for


the right reason;


I want my church


to grow;


Do


I want it


to grow because


I become well known?


Because I'll have better income?


Will I have perks


and privileges?


Or do


I really want it for


the sake of


the kingdom of God?


Well,


I could have mixed motives,


so how do I know?


So Lord purge my motives so that when I do something,


it's from pure motives.


And then there needs


to be confirmation especially with


a major decision;


there needs


to be this indefinable time where you feel peace direction;


I've never heard an audible voice;


there've been few times I've felt like God directly gave me


a statement out of nowhere


to answer what I was concerned about;


and so,


I do believe in miraculous confirmation;


some have dreams visions et cetera;


in my experience it's gonna be one or two things:


one God might give you sign or direction


to open your thinking something you haven't really considered;


however,


you still have go through process discernment prayer consultation with leaders etcetera;


it's not meant stop short circuit process;


God gave direct word so just cut out other means seeking God's will;


other time maybe you've been process;


you know change coming;


you feel God's wanting do something;


maybe see opportunity;


you're not sure about it;


been asked consider something you're not sure;


pray seek God talk leaders go through process making good decisions;


but finally there's moment confirmation where God says do this or no don't feel good about it;


so while believe divine signs intervention direction don't think meant short circuit process we have thinking praying consulting leaders looking pros cons;


so either divine sign open door begin process or divine sign confirm process already going on;


so for any major decision life changing decision major ministry decision depending what is,


want feel confirmation from God indefinable sense peace certainty direction but also other people involved;


so typically want wife feel same thing if local church want leaders feel that if UPCI want general board feel that if they don't may be need go back drawing board either maybe missed or got do better job presenting but need confirmation church.


Yeah,


love practicality: Is there need? Do i have something offer need? Do i capacity fulfill?


Love practicality!


From seat general superintendent able see ton different churches environments levels leadership see sorts vision people creating vision different levels leadership etcetera; when think lot leaders sometimes may decent good vision where headed but difference good vision truly God sized vision; what separates; how tell difference between two?


That's interesting question because lot good things do; again think God gives discretion; if really want do something he'll let us do; maybe not bad thing maybe good thing; but trying focus something greater than; i would say two things come mind when hear question:


First if going be God vision or God sized vision first needs significant impact; when hear phrase think more than just decision ministry needs make significant impact kingdom God area responsibility kingdom God; second thing needs divine divine intervention divine work; so if something 100% within capacity maybe good thing do but wouldn't really call God sized vision; so maybe need learn Spanish ministry that's good thing maybe necessary thing what want do but probably not God sized vision; but if going grow church or build building costs $15 million or start university or start new ministry well no matter how good am not going happen unless everything falls place going need God; so me God sized vision not something unrealistic but something stretching beyond capacity couldn't own ability but with God's guidance God's supply with God's miraculous intervention can done; me that's God sized vision; curious what see scripture how does other people fall into God sized vision often when God gives when it's God sized vision appears takes more than one person even fulfill how does work into yours?


Yes i think look mentioned earlier confirmation others also need participation others think sometimes leaders might make mistake feel like heard from god think settle everybody should just do say role spiritual authority role pastoral authority learned by experience also study word god human life authoritarian approach usually best because need help so let's say going build $15 million building let's say god spoke directly let's say necessary next phase growth well don't $15 million unless partner people can't get done foolish me go congregation try bully them even promote them would they all say yes pastor believe engage them process comes hard work raising funds etcetera if haven't bought into vision gonna happen so think god sized vision require divine intervention it's god sized vision but probably gonna require partners which means learn build consensus can't just pull divine authority card or heard god card because other people gonna say well god needs speak me especially role general superintendent previously district superintendent one thing pastor say feel god direction church gonna want go direction church more less gonna want do but when leading leaders leading preachers hear god themselves if say here heard god this might say fine great leader but they're not highly motivated get done unless hear god so believe has building consensus has leadership not telling people what do help them go along leader cast vision where people need go good leadership motivating people where they need go usually gonna require change usually people don't like change so everybody might like vision don't like necessary steps get there good leader gets people do what they need fulfill maybe gets people reluctant otherwise good leader not just one cast vision says heard god this what need good leader motivates people fulfill yeah makes me think word unity kind line saying general superintendent fellowship not dictatorship style organization can't force everybody same mold what helps leading organization fellowship rally everybody around one god sized vision without forcing everybody same mold that's great question following said good leader tries get people what they need mean manipulative sense tricking cajoling browbeating somehow they want do means part vision can initiate leader has become shared vision they ability speak up modify adapt interpret make own ask questions raise concerns rally people around here's think need first focus mission got look big picture why doing connect vision overall mission can't see connection hard get people follow second gotta communicate gotta over communicate while building consensus communicate listen objections address listen concerns address even after there's good get people share vision so people give ideas accept ideas maybe better approach but approach work fairly well why ahead let them way instead everything plan brain heaven let big goal step two step three so want way put charge adopt approach becomes their communication gotta communicate multiple ways fortunately modern technology preach teach send email send text video give little testimonies video news bulletin hard copy email many different ways use variety methods communication when feel done too much probably started communicate then celebrate results people everybody likes success even somewhat skeptical start seeing results genuine results fake results hyped results rallies people cause when say hey making difference maybe didn't agree maybe not doing everything would wanted doing producing real results we pentecostals pragmatic people sometimes may theological questions well sure right whatever point obviously don't anything biblical point end day fulfilling mission yeah pastor leader moving along their trying protect unity their yet encounter somebody strong disagreement strong preference another direction how protect movement towards well tag previous answer before happens preventive maintenance health lot thing health prevention okay first already should good communication already communicating building consensus already talking informally looking influencers key people not manipulative sense politics bad way good way getting people work together agree part teaching teach room disagreement right way disagree everybody can great advantage establish culture even might give freedom disagree okay because gonna disagree anyway head don't give opportunity handle healthily gonna handle some other way won't know until major problem also gives ability come back say may agree given liberty things way time same love answer one things popped head talking there just wanna heard lot times just hear people okay going different direction lot times just wanna know heard wanna know taken account concern may already done yes right many cases just wanna make sure voice counts thought important things important yeah absolutely touched all over church culture spoken lot primarily culture communication anything more embrace help pastor leader embrace create culture embrace growth numbers spiritual depth mission yes lot things already said so pastor another key leader opportunity communicate spiritually preaching teaching intentional shape healthy culture casting vision talk healthy practices teach model creating healthy culture again communication lot times would even use teachable moments taking 30 seconds service taking little time midweek service family talk face issues had real challenges talk preaching teaching course calling church prayer emphasis missions emphasis soul winning when missions minded open other things god wants us selfishly well energy local projects gonna miss spiritual dynamic when highly motivated give needs support give law create church growth culture locally when missions minded bringing missionaries home foreign engaging soul winning becomes culture church leads healthy growth also would establish culture discipleship culture involvement constantly everybody disciple whether new convert been church 50 years all disciples growing learning developing everyone follower everyone leader somebody always improving own personal leadership ability skills everybody involved every christian ministry pulpit ministry place service service body christ culture church preaching teaching activities everybody disciple everybody learning everybody learning lead others everybody minister servant creating healthy culture growth can't neglect importance leading service leading example sincerely can't manipulation serving day day gonna trust leadership gonna emulate personally involved teaching bible study involved winning soul involved discipling soul maybe senior leader can't much used want somehow still engage grassroots even general superintendent like preaching small churches daughterworks north american missions churches helps stay contact average pastor learn serve learn model lead example creating culture spouse creating church culture very good little rabbit trail often heard talk importance apostolic identity many many times how staying anchored identity actually fuel church growth talking moving towards rather limiting well seen examples people tried say kind generic get more people few dynamic charismatic individuals probably works vast majority apostolic preachers seen try fail miserably one reason believe blessings god another reason competing big world out there got really unique special many options community generic evangelical charismatic nice music low commitment think lower bar pentecostal people love come lowered bar dozen churches usually able compete find answer question apostolic identity help number one gives clarity solves lot problems know should know shouldn't mission focus don't endless debates mobilize people clear extremely important second motivation really believe people baptized jesus name receive holy ghost disciples disciplined live holy life optional extra really important highly motivated know thousand generic churches area doing vitally important kingdom without judgmental others leave hands apostolic identity gives strong motivation reach supposed preach supposed feel divine blessing preach truth right attitude certainly dysfunctional culture negate what's trying practically speaking got pieces place feel preach apostolic doctrine try live humbly according bible teach matter earning favors god trying fulfill word expect bless yes pay tithes order get out believe cause get blessed more than 90% blessing goes further than 100% without blessing analogy pay tithes same preach apostolic doctrine believe vital necessary important right spirit gods bless abundantly better off after all do we really wanna build church own ability best expertise world offer christianity offer wanna build miracle working power god i'll take miracle working power god every time hey leaders interrupting podcast remind stuck scattered unsure grow leadership christian leader self assessment starting point free 10 minutes personalized snapshot leadership health showing thriving where focus next go ryanfranklin.org click link description take self assessment today now get back podcast that's why think apostolic identity important absolutely excellent answer continuing general superintendent see various leaders world see successfully casting carrying out god sized traits know already covered quite few additional traits see leaders probably summarize successful spiritual leader number one kingdom minded short term successful own agenda long run defining success feel should from gods point view number one gotta kingdom minded number two servant leadership mentioned number three leadership example never big servant example trying preach number four real leader cast vision probably most important motivate people where need finally management component gotta good manager regard good leader learns delegate share governance doesn't try control everything casts vision mobilizes delegates shares governance work accomplished many different yes step new year recording december launch 1st january believe god calling pastors ministry leaders focus really want genuine sustainable growth churches organizations thought starting new two year term general superintendent sought lord should saying felt first thing started off first became general superintendent 2010 reminder need apostolic identity apostolic unity apostolic revival revival mean church growth discipleship evangelism discipleship gets right acts 2 42 47 example early embedded official motto upci whole gospel identity whole world revival growth whole unity feel gotta remind basics more specifically cultures continue change change rapidly postmodern post christian little conservative political resurgence now overall trajectory spiritual sense keep going secular context culturally aware aware thinking young adults secular minded raised christian church thinking important not compromise relevant preach teach way relevant them making term relevant compromise how communicate gospel language another saved gotta missionary culture missionary china learn chinese least translator potluck dinner serve texas barbecue serve whatever like dress teach modesty gender distinction no matter make wear suit tie lead don't find appropriate culture missionary foreign missionary suggest promote conversation conservative values engage culture politically again trying convert politics cultural beliefs social beliefs trying convert jesus christ biblical beliefs gotta keep mind think we've done auston conservative biblical holiness church did traditional church trying reach auston reaching auston look camp meeting louisiana camp love dealing different environment gotta think conservative traditional apostolic missionary american convert vote candidate doesn't matter trying convert jesus christ biblical beliefs keep mind thats gotta renew prayer vison ask fresh vison 2026 cast vison tremendous love answer also end question also opportunity anything additional like often speak leaders spoke one morning negative emotions particularly time year seems ending beginning christmas busyness many times negative emotions related lack vison drains motivation creates overwhelm discouragement unsure begin if leader coming asking telling overwhelmed discouraged don't know begin what say taking first steps towards god sized vison themselves organization first question ask them: Do you have vison because if no won't communicate its ok no go back prayer called preach called place ministry felt confirmed renew charge challenge vison through prayer study communicating folks trust still getting where go study community target audience needs thinking important compromise compromise pray study environment called who called might find changed might why no vison little phrase call holy dissatisfaction sometimes dissatisfied found fault leaders found fault churhtruly nobody perfect find bunch faults find yourself critical mode step back wait minute maybe god trying cause dissatisfied move geographically ministerially dissatisfaction bad thing gods way kicking nest get hold vison once vison dealing difficult situation nobody seem want anything everybody backsliding carnal happens periodically feel whole churh ready fall apart told wife churh house cards pull card everything fall apart persons backsliding persons job transfer persons marriage trouble persons divorce persons affair persons getting card gone overnight lot them are leaders pull card whole gone overnight been felt way got vison communicate preach teach passion even dont preach frustrated preach faith preach encouragement found best way problem preach gods control gods gonna do preaching myself more anybody else focus core group key influencers change agents learn change culture dont get majority convinced got two three key convinced only doing something cant done youre leader course leader will one doing other person doing exception special circumstances once two three starts changing culture saying doing why cant i doing lot news can get few key buy vison change whole course end day leading example only worshiping learned missions past pastor no knowing worship spirit moving nobody responding right way got myself sooner later someone catch lot good news god give vison implement close final thought matthew 25 maybe help discouraged pastor tend compare ourselves among ourselves even tell stories saying brother bernard did should everyone story different location different god put where put parables jesus gave parable talents some given greater resources greater results parable pound matthew parable pounds luke every same resources produce some produce some produce more some produce more some produce more same answer dont compare doesnt make less person measure success much money big building much attendance many receive holy ghost obviously want metrics affected strive end day faithful parable matthew well done good faithful servant instead measuring churh many discipled gone other churches gone ministry bigger size churh sense partnered made possible missionaries partnered partner measure success gods standard working end day lord looks eye puts arm around wipes tears troubles says hey ryan dont think hes call brother bernard probably says hey david did good job did called good job striving accomplish tremendous words tremendous words dr bernard thank busy man traveling 80 plus countries world thank time today greatly appreciate voice conversation means much know many others watch listen well thank opportunity always great find another way try connect appreciate absolutely mention dr bernard tremendous podcast apostolic life 21st century youtube podcast listen both actually depends im love podcast drops little nuggets theology church growth advice different things week little snippets answering question tremendous podcast recommend check anything else brother bernard think summarizes appreciate work doing louisiana having impact many other places well merrier great see younger ministers filling call beauty body christ each role play no superhero savior except jesus all job work together accomplish mission kingdom thats right thats right concludes show today name ryan franklin thank much joining christian leader made simple podcast



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