In this episode, we are joined by Joel Urshan, senior pastor and host of The Fruitful Vine podcast, to explore the impact of the Fruit of the Spirit on effective leadership. Joel unpacks how these spiritual attributes can transform decision-making, enhance communication, and help leaders navigate challenges like loneliness. He shares personal insights and practical steps for integrating the Fruit of the Spirit into daily leadership practices. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or a business professional, this conversation offers valuable wisdom to elevate your leadership journey and cultivate a thriving community.
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Transcript
And and you've taken the time to check yourself, you may be the 1 that needs to repent. You may be the 1 that needs to go to them and say, hey, I didn't treat you right. And I didn't I didn't take your interests seriously when I... When we came to this decision or what have you, it may be us that needs to do the repent. And Yeah.
And so once you can, find closure on that, front. Then you can go to them and address it head on, and you speak the truth in love and then your voice will have the same effect that the voice of God had with you when he spoke so lovingly, the truth to you. Welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. I really hope this episode helps you learn and master the skills you need to grow your leadership effectiveness and enjoyment. Be sure to hit the subscribe button to get notified as soon as I post a new session so you don't miss a single episode.
I'd also greatly appreciate any reviews, likes and shares that you can give me. It just helps me extend my reach to more people. So leaders, I know just how frustrating it can feel when you're in the weeds of work or ministry and life is chaotic, you're struggling to feel effective and you're just not enjoying leadership as much as you could be. And so to help you After many years of leadership and executive coaching, I've developed a framework called the Christian leader blueprint that'll guide you to find clarity in your life and leadership. It'll help you gain a better rhythm of life It'll help you see yourself more clearly to leverage your strengths, and you'll produce more productive relationships.
It's a step by step guide to leadership transformation. And I have that in 2 formats now. I have a free short guide that you can find on ryan franklin dot org, and I have a book, the Christian leader blueprint. And you can find that in any format, including an... Deal book wherever you buy your books.
I have a few more things on my website that you may be interested in, so just head on over to Ryan franklin dot org and check it all out. And now, let's get to our session. Neo Welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. On the show today, we have a very special guest that you likely have heard preach over the last few years. His name is pastor Joel Ers.
And in case you don't know him, let me just introduce him to you for a moment. Joel is a senior pastor of tree of life church in Cincinnati, Ohio, where he leads a vibrant community of believers. He also hosts the fruitful vine podcast where he explores themes of faith and life through the lens of scripture. It's a great podcast. You'll definitely wanna check that out.
He has an extensive background in ministry, and many people know him, and I'm gonna quote from someone that I recently heard as 1 of the best preacher on earth today. And I know he's a humble man he don't even like me, saying that, But, and I know it's not gonna go to his head. So pastor Joel, welcome to the show. Thank you. It's an honor to be a part of this great podcast weed.
So appreciate the work that you do, and you truly do help to simplify Christian leadership and make it accessible and doable for Christian leaders. We appreciate you, and thank you for letting me be on today. Well, thank you so much. Before we jump into the actual topic of the interview, I I would love for you to kinda share some key moments of your journey that kinda got you to where you are today. Your senior pastor.
You travel all over the globe. Preaching, people love to hear you preach. But I'd love to hear maybe some key moments or or things that got you to where you are today that maybe most people wouldn't know. Well, yeah. The...
That's a the great question. I... Because there are so many points along the the the journey that I look back on, and I see you know, the lord at work, in my life and, you know, maybe moments where I didn't know that he was making away and and kind of ordering steps and whatnot. But there were there were several intervals, you know, throughout my life that kind of, paved the path that God would would lead me down. But if if I think about that, and I think of it in the context of of things people may not know.
And given the subject matter that we're gonna be talking about through of the spirit. I probably will talk about those spiritual moments, if I may that occurred in my life that were, really, mile markers so to speak of that that that the lord just shifted my, path, my trajectory and just began to really do work in me that that that kinda brought me to a point where I value the fruit of the spirit, which is why we have the proof of vine and so forth, but the... There there were are a couple prayers that I prayed and in answering those prayers, the lord sent me on a journey, 1 of them was, I asked the Lord if I could hear his voice. If you would let me hear his voice, and I prayed that pretty intensely for, couple of weeks, and and he did. He let me he let me hear his voice.
And hearing the voice of God was a was a life change for me. Understanding what what the voice of God is and how it can speak to us. That still small voice being able to follow him. That that I can't even... I can't even put into words the the the, level of, impact that had in my life.
Another prayer I prayed was I asked the Lord why I feel so compelled and inspired to preach the 1 of God. I mean, it it has been with me as long as I can remember. And and I was named kind of after the, idea of God being 1. My my parents named me Joe well, which is the lord is God, and that was the reason because of... It was about the 1 of God.
And it really kind of has been my just my my the joy of my soul to to to dwell on the goodness and the 1 of god. And it's... What brought me into the ministry. When I... When I really, at the age of 10 saw the revelation of the mighty god in Christ.
That's when I began to preach. It was like a fire in my bones. I had to get it out. Had to preach. Yeah.
And I said, Look, why do I wanna preach that everywhere I go. He puts it in me to preach just about everywhere I go. And him answering that question for me, was a journey. And and the practical technicalities associated with God being 1 and how it relates to him being the lord of his people, it changed my life. And so that...
Those spiritual experiences helped me to value the fruit of the spirit, as I do. I prayed another prayer, but III don't... The way the lord answered it is interesting, I think. I've asked him, I prayed to prayer that people advise you not to pray. I asked the Lord to make me humble.
I was a kid. As said Lord making him. And then I started backtrack. No not no prayer. It is.
But he said something in that moment. I really felt the lord's. Speak to my soul and he said, because I start... I really did actually start backtrack. I, actually, no.
I didn't mean that. I didn't mean that. Don't answer that prayer. Kinda, like, ask the order to make you patient, I heard people say, you don't ask the lord to make you humble because he will. And...
But I prayed the prayer and I felt the Lord speak to me and say, don't ever be afraid to ask me for anything. And you can ask me for anything. And... And then I realized he can make you humble without humiliating you. And so I don't...
I'm not here to say, oh, yeah, the lord made me humble. You know, the guy that's so proud about humble They are... I heard brother attorney say humility is that that unique quality at the moment you know you have it, You don't. So so I'm not... I'll just say this, Joe, you're...
I've seen you in the pulpit pit in front of thousands. But I've also seen you behind the scenes, 1 on 1 with me. And you're the same guy there as you are behind the scenes. And, you know, I I can't say that about everyone. Behind the scenes that because of the times, I've...
I get the opportunity to see a lot of preacher. And not everyone is, portrays that trait of humility. And I just wanna say from a from an outsider looking in you absolutely portray that trade, and that prayer has been answered. You you have every reason to to, I guess, you know, in in slang terms have the big head, yet, you don't. And you're humble, you love people, you love God.
You love doing the work of of of the lord. And and you're willing to do things like even this right here, to come and invest and and people that may be listen to this. I hope you're enjoying this episode on the fruit of the spirit but pastor joel Ers, because as you can tell, it's full of wisdom. But before we go any further with that, I just wanna bring your attention to something that I am super excited about. I have workbook books for the Christian leader blueprint.
And many of you have asked for this? There are 4 parts to the Christian leader blueprint, so there are 4 workbook. I've got 2 of them in my hand right here, but you can purchase the the paper back version or the Kindle version on Amazon right, now. And this is gonna help you dive deep into the principles of a model that has literally changed my life. It has drastically improved my leadership health and effectiveness.
So whether you're working through these concepts personally or you're doing it with a small group or with your leadership team, I know that it's going to be a blessing to you. So pause this podcast and go right now to Amazon, and purchase the Christian leader, blueprint, workbook books, and now back to our podcast. Well, thank you for those kind words. I I truly, am and grateful and thankful to they're very encouraging. I appreciate that and.
The Lord is certainly good. He's been so good. And I I thank you. Thank you for those those kind words I'll tell you. I I do have...
Again, I I don't... I appreciate your kind words. I don't know if I could say the Lord has answered that prayer, but I can say he really truly... I I have a... I I'm I'm I'm very keenly aware of how easily pride can manifest itself.
I'm keenly aware of that, and that's that I think maybe be the way he answered that prayer for me is as I see. Pride can it's can see in in the most undetectable of ways. And you can you can think you're doing something good for God, and it actually be pride and and So that's something that he did help me by his grace to be sensitive to when pride is actually trying to manifest itself in me. And so I I pray that he'll help me to be sensitive to that. I...
It's such a corrupting influenced pride is such a corrupting. Yes. And I would say that the opposite of pride is, or 1 of the opposing is the fruit of the spirit, which is what we're here to talk about today. Your podcast is is called the fruitful vine. It's 1 of the reasons why I wanted to bring you on the show.
I love your preaching, your... You are 1 of my favorites. But I I have really enjoyed listening to the fruit vine. And just hearing you talk about scripture and and, so much of it comes from the from the fruit of the spirit. And...
But I wanna talk about it in relation to leadership in general, And I'd love to start off by you sort of unpacking how the concept, how you see the concept of the fruit of the spirit, how it relates to effective leadership in general. Well, the the thank you for your your kind words and shout out for fruit vine, very very kind of you. It's something that the lord put on our heart. I... People had asked me about maybe doing the podcast, and III didn't wanna just do it to do it.
I wanted to be led of the lord to do it. I wanted there to be a, a mission reason for it. And when it crystallize, for, me and for us, and I would get a a shout out to Tyler C of Weston Birch. They do such an amazing job. Thank Oh, great Yeah.
For sure. They a great great team. And so thank you for your for your, kind words there but the concept of it is to approach things through the fruit of the spirit, and the fruit of the spirit have been to me a great source of strength. And I I think I wanna... I just don't want us as the body christ to underestimate the power of the fruit of the spirit, I believe that when the fruit of the spirit.
And I think many people do. It is true. I think they do. And I think it's because they they look at it as being... You know, nice that qualities to have, and these are things you should be, like, a a an a goal to attain them into.
Yeah. And... But they failed to see how organic it is and how that it is a... It is an actual byproduct, of what the spirit does in our lives. And and and it's when we try to kind force things through the flesh that we fail to let the fruit of the holy spirit grow when they grow they will do the fruit of the spirit will do for us what needs to be done, and that's actually how it's effective, I think in leadership.
If you look at the the pitfalls of leadership, the challenge is associated with it all of the nuanced ways that leadership can become can become a hampered. It... It's through many times it's through conflict. It's through comparison. It's through emulation envy strife personalities that are are mesh well, people kind of, under valuing under appreciating 1 another getting offended all of those elements that are associated with the the potential pitfalls of leadership, fruits addresses all of that.
And so applying the fruit of the spirit to those particular elements of leadership. I I really think it's the... I think it's the cure to to the child leadership. Agree. And I and I think, you know, when you think of things like love or joy or peace, particularly love.
Mh. This day and age, people are so flawed in their thinking of of love they're wounded. We're... And in fact, I'm I'm wounded. If we're wounded people.
And we struggle to love deeply. Yeah. That's a quality that can that can drastically change the effectiveness of a leader. When you say? Oh, absolutely.
Most definitely. And and what love is. It's the model. That Christ gave us. So so he's the model of love, and the new command that he gave us was that he would love that we would love 1 another as he loved us.
We you when you couple that law with love your neighbor as yourself you you began to love with a self less love, you begin to want for your fellow leaders, what you would have for yourself. So when somebody else gets promoted, you rejoice with them. You don't beg garage them that that moment of promotion you celebrate with them, is the fruit of the spirit that puts you in a mindset where you can do that genuinely. It's not put on. And that's the thing.
I think people look at the fruit of the spirit, and they... Then they look at the deficiency of their own flesh and they think never... I could never do that. I I know me. So I I would never be gentle enough.
I could never be temperate enough. Or meek enough. Meekness doesn't run My family kind of a thing. Well, that's right, but it isn't your flesh doing it. It's not the fruit of the flesh.
It's the fruit of the spirit Wow And so you... It it... The root of the spirit will position you to have all the good qualities that strong leaders and healthy leaders need to have. With you saying that, I'm grappling with something and and maybe you can help me here. There's there's a lot of evidence in scripture that that gifts of the spirit they're given instantaneously.
And then they're developed with a deep comm of God. And I and I know that fruit of the spirit is to also develop with the deep comm of God. But I also see fruit of the spirit as more of a maturing process over time. And and I also see it as a big portion of it as sort of our responsibility. 1, can you can you agree with me or disagree with me either 1, and and can you talk a little about that?
Give your thoughts on that? Well, I I think I might... I think I may just try to maybe, expand on it a little bit if I may. Yeah. The the...
Very similarly to the way that the gifts of the spirit as you described them instantaneously and developed over time. I think there's some similarity there with through of the spirit, but here's how. The the the the seed in the parable of the sow is the word of god. Mh. And that is the seed that creates the fruit of the spirit.
It's a seed that comes into us. So again, we... We do look at the fruit of the spirit sometimes as... Oh, man. Love joy peace long suffering gentleness good to faith maintenance temper.
Wow. And none of those. Or maybe 1 or 2 of those at best. Sometimes. And we we fail to realize again, it's not the fruit of the flesh.
It's the fruit of the spirit. So where does that fruit come from? It does not come from our flesh. It does not come from us having the ability to be nice, us having the ability to be patient, none of those things. So so just forget that because you're...
You and me and anyone else? We're not those things. Yeah. There might be some people who who desire that, in the goodness of their heart, what what goodness there exists and and their human will. But the human will can only produce so much and it's it's gonna be short lived.
Yeah. When when Paul describes in first Corinthians 13, all of those qualities of a love. He's he's describing the qualities of a love, but he's also basically describing what human love is not. You know, love... A agave love is kind.
Well what human love often isn't. Human love can be broken, but but a love suffers long is patient, believes all things bears all things, hopes all things. This is the fruit of the spirit that is love. So Yeah. The fruit of the spirit is given to us in seed form, which is the word of god?
So how is it developed over time? How is it matured? How is their a maturation over time as you described? It's through receiving the word, and as that word is seed, it's it's implanted in our hearts. Mh.
We expose that word of God. To the elements that bring forth the fruit. And and those elements are similar to rain and sunshine are the presence of god are even experiences where where that seed is broken up. Sometimes the fruit can grow by experiences where we have opportunity to be offended, experiences where people have heard us. And instead of lashing out with the flesh we say no.
I'm gonna let the spirit handle this and that's an opportunity for that maturation process to occur. So the process is a process because it it mirrors the way natural fruit grows. Yeah. You know, I'm also hearing a little bit in your voice of needing others around us to help mature that as well, Would you would you say that that's a big factor and the maturation of of for sugar, I I would completely agree with that. In fact, it's necessary.
It's the disturbing of the seed that breaks the seed open. And when that seed... It even when the bible talks about, the the seed falling to the ground and dying. If it doesn't do that, it just abide alone, but it's talking about Christ at Calvary. That's the model of how the fruit grows.
When Jesus died, He didn't die he didn't die and we get buried and that was the end, he died and he multiplied when he when he rose from the dead. That's what happens with the fruit of the spirit. When he told us to take up his cross and follow him, that that cross don't be surprised when somebody nails you to that cross. That's really how you die daily. You die daily, not just not from necessarily your...
Efforts at at just making yourself as low as you possibly can. That's... We need to do that to be flesh with the affection and lust, yes. But be careful because sometimes, that's little of sneaky ways pride can slip in, and you can become so proud of how you have descended to such a low degree in your sacrifices and in your disciplines even. You've got...
We've gotta be careful not to let pride enter that way to where we feel like we sacrifice more than anybody else, and we're more humble than anybody else. No. The fruit of the spirit, that that that... Those are works of the flesh. The fruit of the spirit comes.
When like Christ, there is a death of our flinch. And Paul said I die daily. Many times the death you'll die daily will come from people wound you with their words and instead of you lashing out at them, you absorb the blow and and and and it's very similar christ being crucified. It's the cross we take up. Yeah.
And I would I would also add there that through that wounding, and sometimes even in the midst of a wounding, the the Lord may send a mentor your way or a pastor your way or a counselor your way or someone. That is just... That has a a little bit more, maybe a little further along in their maturing process to kinda help guide you in those times where you may be wounded and Yes. And will help bring out more of the fruit of the spirit in your life. Will help bring more peace to you or will help you understand how to love your spouse better or love the people that you're serving better.
Right. Right. Well, and that's true, and I'll tell you too that the fruit of the spirit. Is also seasonal. It's it's it's to grow at all times like the fig tree.
The time of figs is not yet, so the fig tree had no figs and Jesus cursed it. So it is supposed to grow under any circumstances. But just because you had fruit of the spirit to operate in 1 season of your life doesn't mean it automatically operate in the next. You have to be intentional about the seed, prayer, worship, presence of god, the the allowing yourselves allowing yourself to be, when those wounds come from others? No.
That's an opportunity for fruit to grow? So the scripture says, what does the lord do with a branch that bears fruit. He purge it that it may bring forth more fruit. And so this fruit that is purged or fruit that is born been born, and has produced and has been effective. You may think you've been through it and you got through it and you responded well, praise God.
Well, you're gonna go through something else and the reason is so that God can can bring new fruit from your life. And so Mh. There are seasons too where I'm gonna have to learn to love again. I'm gonna have to learn to be temperate. Again, I thought I I thought I got this mixed good thing down.
Yeah. But I feel that flare up if that that flesh is flaring up and the food of the spirit overcomes the works of the flesh. Yeah. So there's a few key... I would call them a very common leadership type things that we need to process and learn and, you know, we read books on these things and stuff.
But I wanna look at these these couple of key, leadership task, I would say, or components that I wanna look at it through the lens of the fruit of the spirit. And so let's take this first decision making. In what ways do you see the the fruit of the spirit influencing our decision making and leadership roles? Well, in it the way that it influences decision making primarily is with love, Love needs to be at the center of what we do. And by love, I mean, love for God, love for his word love of truth, and then love for people.
You know, when you when you love God and you love people, you're gonna make good decisions. Or and and you're gonna make you're gonna make sound godly decisions, to make good decisions in leadership, you have to have pure motives. And the way to purify your motive is to love God and love people. Yeah. If you love God love people, then you're obviously, you're fulfilling the great command, and the second greatest command, but you're also purifying your motives.
So the agenda, that could be disruptive that could be self serving, is gone because you're you're you're purifying it with with that love. So I mentioned that the fruit of the spirit overcome the works of the flesh. That's an important part of the fruit of the spirit that I don't know that we stopped to consider. But the fruit of the spirit is like natural, actual fruit. And that they're loaded with antioxidants.
And they... When they live in you, they... Those antioxidants fight the virus, the back bacteria that could otherwise corrupt a body. Let this body in this context be an organization, a corporation, a a church structure. Well, when the bacterium of emulation wrath, in the strife tradition.
These are all works of the flesh according to Galatians 05:19 and 20. These works of the flesh will corrupt as do viruses in bacteria, a natural body these types of works on the flesh will corrupt an entity, adult identification and clean las as wrath, strive editions, ari sees, variance, all sorts of different works of the flesh, but you can't overcome works of the flesh by better intention works of the flesh, which would be us trying our best to not do those things and not be those things. That's trying our best. That's just the flesh. This more works of the flesh.
It's when you let the fruit grow and let the spirit operate the the spirit operates through the fruit. So I mentioned that the seed generates the fruit. But what makes fruit fruit is that it carries the seed with it. So an apple is a fruit because it has seed in it. An orange is a fruit because it has seed in it.
Vegetables are different. Celery, carrots, those are those are roots. Those are stalks, but and and then they're are leafy vegetables, spinach and so forth. But but when you're talking about fruit, it's the seed that determines whether something is fruit or not. And the fruit of the spirit have the seed, which is the word of God in it.
So to give you an example, of how love can impact AAA leadership structure. I may not be in a setting where I can open up my bible and preach a sermon to a given situation but I can demonstrate the fruit that is the love of god. And that that demonstration of his love carries the sermon in it. It carries the seed in it and and there are antioxidants inside that, fruit of the spirit that neutralize the works of the flesh. So how do you overcome heresy, fatty.
How do you overcome strive, peace. How do you overcome wrath, gentleness, That's what the bible means when it says soft answer turn of the way wrath. That's that's the fruit of the spirit and that's leadership. So Yeah. When we make decisions according to the fruit of the spirit, those decisions are going to be the best made decisions because they love God or or the love of God, and the love brings his people, the love of his truth is it the core of at all.
It p the motive, and it it allows you to have the best opportunity in position to make a good decision. Yeah. Very very good, by the way. And I've heard some bits and pieces of of that, the, the antioxidants, and am I saying that right? Yeah.
Yeah. You the antioxidants accidents. Yeah. Yeah. I've heard you talk about that, on your on your podcast several times.
That is a phenomenal analogy. You... You've touched on this just a little bit, and so... But I wanna see if you have anything else to add conflict resolution and just good communication in general, how would that Yeah. Howard would fruit the spirit apply to that?
Well, that's that's always a challenge. You know, they say that every relationship has 3 phases. There's a Honeymoon phase. There's a conflict phase, and then there's a conflict resolution phase. And and the goal is to get to the conflict resolution phase.
So many relationships burn out in the conflict phase because it's so offensive. And it's so hurtful. Mh. But as a christian leader, you really truly have to decide like Jesus, these you will not be offended. You have to make up your mind and pray and get god's strength to demonstrate kind of patients, he demonstrates.
There's nobody more patient than God. There's nobody more long suffering than when he walked this earth as Jesus Christ, and we need that kind of longs suffering So we have to make the determination. I will not be offended. I will not allow myself to let this hurt, prevent this relationship that God has ordained, Mh for us to work together for us to to do work together. I'm not gonna let it die in this conflict phase.
We meant to move past calvary and into the resurrection. And you see it in the life of Christ, his ministry. Oh my goodness. They were waving home leaves singing Rosa louisiana, then he was crucified, and then he rose from the dead. And and it comes back to loving people the way Christ has loved us, so the fruit of the spirit is constantly at work.
You know, 1 of the ways that I feel helps us... Oh, I'm sorry. I'm sorry. No I ahead. I was just doing there.
1 of the ways I feel helps us to not be offended is to understand what we truly deserve? But what do we deserve? We don't deserve salvation, God gave that to us, but that's not what we deserve? So when we are in a position of being offended. Okay.
It does it feel good. It's hurtful. I wish they wouldn't do it. But when I compare that to what I actually do deserve as someone who is... Sinner by sinful nature, but I've been given the grace and mercy of God.
How can I withhold that grace and mercy from someone even if they've offended me or heard me? I I wanna release that to them the same way God released it to me, and I like to say this if you think feeling forgiven, feels good, wait till you feel the blessing of forgiving somebody. There's there's no joy. Like for giving someone. And that's that's special joy that that God gave to us to have.
So many times in in conflict resolution, I see where, especially with pastors who are many of them are naturally high in compassion and they're, you know, a team player and they're they're, you know, have a high interpersonal sensitivity. Then you add the holy ghost on top of that, fruit of the spirit. And... But it seems like sometimes those individuals struggle to present truth in those settings. They start around the truth, and I hate to say it like this, but oftentimes it's, it's passive aggressive type behavior.
They show lots of grace and they struggle to show the truth. And, my thought is is we have such a powerful. Fruit of the spirit within us with to present grace to an individual. That actually enables us to be able to speak truth even more effectively in my opinion, but people often struggle with that. Can you speak to that just a little bit?
I think that's really well said, and I think it's a great point to make because there's nuance there. The person can be trying to demonstrate grace and it actually be passive aggressive this. And they don't even mean for it to be. That's where pure motive has to come in and that that comes to the fruit of the the fruit of the spirit will neutralize that thing in us that makes us wanna make our point, because that's what the passive aggressive is trying to achieve on make that good. Yeah.
Something's not dead in us. We have to actually let it die. We have to let the flesh die. And it's the fruit of the spirit that will overcome the flesh. So so instead of bringing someone in trying to demonstrate grace, but it's really your flesh that's trying to produce the grace, and it's not the spirit in you trying to produce the grace.
Because the flesh is still alive. So you come across passive aggressive were maybe made I didn't come across that way, but you're still being that. Right. Yeah. You you wanna be able to speak the truth and love.
And you wanna be able to say, okay. So this is the reality. These are the things that need to be addressed. 1 of the things that's so important is to really truly check yourself. Do intros fiction, make sure that you're on the righteous side of this issue because there may be in this prayer in this time of being in the presence of god opening the word of God, letting the word of God, not just comfort you, but correct you.
You can many times find. You know what? I'm actually the 1 who is complicating this issue, I'm the 1 who's being, and I speaking for me, there have been many times, where in prayer, studying the word. I feel, man, I feel justified to think the way I'm thinking it feel the way I'm feeling. But IIII mentioned a sensitivity to pride.
I know me well enough to know. I can be dead wrong and feel like I'm the 1 who's right. And so going to the word, letting the word correct you letting the spirit speak to you. That's another thing that I was talking about when I said, I the lord... The voice of the lord.
I've had the lord settings to me man that if somebody else had said it, IIII don't know how I'd respond, but he says it with such love and such grace, but it's true. And he's he's not skirt the issue. I I feel like I felt the lord say to me what time. I feel like he he told me I really resembled the ph seat. I'm acting like a ph seat.
And that was a hard that was a hard thing to to think, but But because he said it. And he's all. He's already persuaded me that he loves me, and that's a key persuading people that you love them. That'll don't mean make them feel like you love him. Or gain their trust.
But but them be able to know for sure that you do in fact love them. Yeah. That I call it connection before correction. When you take. There's a huge difference in and the ability to do that.
Speaking loving things and really truly loving. There's a difference... Absolutely. I... For instance, I take issue, and I hear myself say it, We gotta show people love.
We do. But don't just show what. Let it be the reality. Don't don't let it just be, and I I know we don't mean that we mean for it to be the reality, but sometimes our language I think can complicated. We we can think that if we show love.
Than we are loving. But Yeah. But but that's not that's not always the case. We we have to actually love the person. And when when you speak to them with love, then...
And you've taken the time to check yourself, you may be the 1 that needs to repent. You may be the 1 that needs to go to them and say, hey, I didn't treat you right. And I didn't I didn't take your interests seriously when I... When we came to this decision or what have you, it may be us that needs to do the repent. And...
Yeah. And so once you can find closure on that front, then you can go to them and address it head on, and you speak the truth and love, and then your voice will have the same effect that the voice of God had with you when he spoke so lovingly, the truth. To you as to what you needed to to change. And and the fruit of the spirit actually help you do away with passive aggressive tendencies do away with making subtle points so that you can get it off your chest as opposed to really dealing with the issue. The fruit of the spirit that that the the it actually is the it actually is the method by which God wants us to speak the truth.
Mh. Speaking the truth in love is really the only way this truth can be spoken. Yeah. So loneliness is something that I often see. I work with a lot of pastors across the nation, and I see loneliness is a great challenge for leaders in this day and age.
And I'm just curious how can the fruit of the spirit be used to in your mind to help manage feelings of isolation and even combat that loneliness in that that many leaders feel. Well, I encourage from my experience in my personal bout with Loneliness. I have encouraged people to... Take inventory of the of the moment. And and just see if maybe what you're feeling is an empathy.
Because I have found that many times when I have felt lonely. It was because someone else did, and the lord was actually trying to create some sort of of, connection some sort of of even to check. For sure. Yeah. It it it is has been the case often where I would feel something someone else was feeling.
And script support for that would be that we have a high priest. Who can be touched with the feelings of our in fur. That's what Jesus felt our in fur. And I think when it comes to loneliness, the fruit of the spirit because it does involve other people, can put you in proximity to them if you if you feel after it and and realize, okay. I'm feeling with somebody else's feeling.
And Lord, who is it? Who do I need to who do I need to reach out to? It isn't always the case. I'm not... I don't wanna downplay the loneliness that someone feels, but sometimes that's the case.
Now I gonna say that when... I was just gonna say that I see, you know, leaders out there, particularly, you know, senior level, high level leaders surrounded by people, maybe even a staff of people. And... But they... But they don't move in close and love people the way that they should, or they love people.
They don't allow people to love them back the way that they should. And that's where I see a lot of the issue, and and I'm not... Yeah. I'm not even really sure where I'm... What I'm actually asking here.
Yeah. Well, I think I think what I hear in the question is how can loneliness or pardon me, how can the fruit of the spirit contribute to emotional health? In the leader. That's the... That's a better way to put it.
For sure. Well, because I think a lot of times, under... We it's good to remember that the, fruit of the spirit comes from the lord So it it's a relationship with God then where it all starts. So I've encourage people, you know, let turn your loneliness into sol. There's a difference between loneliness and sol.
That's good. Don't just be alone, be alone with God, and then be aware of who the lord is putting in your path because there are too many people who feel alone and that's not maybe their reality. Sometimes it is, and and and we as the church have responsibility to to be mindful of that and to look out for Lord, who do I need to to? Who who is it that you would have me move into their life, and and we we remain sensitive to that. And sometimes, he can create...
He can help us to feel that person's loneliness, and then we can go to them. But does your specific question about a person maybe a a leader who shows love, but and gives love, but has a heart of receiving it, so then they they remain in this position of, of a lack because they are constantly giving... Well, they're giving poor that they're pouring out from from an empty vessel, essentially. Right. And I and I know that we receive...
I know that we received that from the Lord. Yeah. But he also designed it where we receive those nutrients from others abs absolutely as well. And Absolutely I don't know if maybe even even it's just an encouragement that people that may be listen to this right now. May need to lean in to receive some of the first that they may have around them from others.
Absolutely. Absolutely. You know, if we we focus on... It's more blessed to give than to receive. He didn't say it's not a blessing to receive.
He yeah. It's more blessed to give, but there is a blessing and receiving. And and he said when you give it shall be given to you. Good measure down shaken together running over shall men give into your b. So correct So don't...
The the the spirit of giving doesn't end with you given. It it it it's a circular thing. The giving comes back to you in the form of you receiving and you give and you receive. So that's... It's very important part of it actually, that a leader remains in a position not just of giving, but receiving of that love, And and and I think maybe someone that even has to do somewhat with our personalities because we we like being in the position of give because it's for whatever reason that is.
There... There's a very satisfying. Part of giving. And if we get There's a humility part of receiving. There's well it it feels needy.
Exactly. And you need to let the other person experience being the give. They they do that also to be able to give, and the only way they can do that is if you will be the receiver. It's it's it it is healthy for us to to be intentional about blessing And then when the blessing comes, don't close, don't put up the guard, III think if I had to take a kind of a stab at bring some definition on that. That can be a good way of checking.
Ourself. I... Because again, pride can see been so easily. If it's our flesh, because the flesh and motivate us to do good things and give us own credit for it. And But if if it's the spirit that's motivating it, and these...
This fruit is the fruit of the spirit, not the fruit of the flesh, then then I think that we will be in that position of also, okay, Gonna receive. Just as I've given, I'm gonna let... I'm gonna let the receiving part happen now as it should. Yeah. So with your life, you're you're human.
Right, you're not super super about above Right. Abs observe that correctly. Hundred percent. There's times in your life in your past where you haven't fully embody the fruit of the spirit? And and can you just give us a...
Maybe, would you be willing to give us a specific example of how that you've struggled at times and how that impacted you negatively? Yes. Well, and and I... I'll give you 2 men's instances and, again, pride flesh. They sneak in so just in such a sneaky way.
Just touch a separately too. So quickly. Yeah. You you can think you're doing something so righteous and you're like, oh my goodness. That was all fledged and it was all pride.
But 2 instances and in both instances, I was defending someone else. And I felt justified in that because it wasn't me that was under the attack. Now if it's me that's under the attack. I I believe that the lord will fight our battles. And so I I'm I'm comfortable, Lord helped me let and may it be true.
I'm comfortable with letting the lord fight my battle, you know, in Jesus name theoretically spiritually speaking, I I want that to be true. But in these 2 instances that I'm thinking of, as I consider them, they both involve other people that I was defending. Mh. And I let my flesh do it. And and in 1 case, I was defending someone who I I was...
I was copied on some correspondence and the correspondence was directed at the person. And they were, I bringing me into the equation, and I didn't appreciate what was said to the person. Mh. Man I came out firing in defense of the of the individual under attack. Well, they didn't.
They they weren't... They didn't feel under attack, and they didn't feel like they needed me took this. But I felt like, I was justified. And I really hurt the person that sent the original mess to hurt them. Because I acted flesh.
I was something like peter reference Not on your side at that point. No. I wasn't mean temporary exactly. And I felt justified because while I would never do this for myself, and I'll do it for a friend And I ended up hurting this person. They...
Now, they're they're they're still my friend. This individual still my friend, but I saw their struggle. And, yeah, it was from that that the lord helped me, and this was through my wife, my wife actually is the 1 who said, you know, you ought to wait 24 hours before you respond to Thank you are that you are passionate practice. Good practice. Is a great practice some sound counsel from my wife And this was many years ago, but I I started practicing that just if I feel kind passionate about it.
I'll wait. I'll wait about 24 hours, I'll get my spirit right. So that when I respond, if I respond, I do so in love and in a a way that's appropriate. The other time was another moment where I was going to defend somebody. I felt like they were letting the Lord defend them, and I was gonna be the way alone defended them.
And again, I came out. IIII was nearly about to come to their defense, but before I responded, the lord checked me. And he said, he said this is un otherwise, and I did not respond. And I reached out to the friend I was going to defend, and I said, I just wanted you to know that III felt to defend, but I I just I thought the lord checked me, and they thanked me. They said that was the right thing.
It would have just made matters worse. And these were things that happened years ago and it were they were both so helpful to me because Again, I felt justified because I saw friends that were being treated unfairly and I thought that I could step in and make... And and I would make up the hedge. I would be the I would be the way the lord defended them. But the lord really truly is the 1 who fights now.
And Yeah. And when he does it, he he does it well. But I was in a position of Simon Peter, who thought he was in the right because he was defending Jesus, and Jesus said, you know what, you cut this man's ear off. And, you know, the scripture says he that have an ear let him here what the spirit saved to the church. And if you are reacting has lashing out.
You're not doing things according to through the spirit. You're gonna end up removing the 1 part of that person's. Makeup that can allow them to properly hear the gospel. And and so we've gotta be careful when we just start wielding that sword. We can feel so justified.
Out there they the lord, but that whole conflict moment. Jesus said to Peter when he said I will let anybody do any harm to you. Jesus called him Satan and said get behind me, satan him. You don't savor or understand the things of God. And basically what Jesus was saying is, I've got a plan.
They're going to hurt me. They're going to wound me. They're they're going do harm to me. And then watch. As I forgive them and blow their mind and change their paradigm and they stand off in the distance with blood dripping from their sword saying truly this was the son of God, it's the master plan of God.
He works through conflict. He shows mercy and grace through conflict, and sometimes we've gotta let that happen. Such a great example, and thank you so much for being transparent there with some of your own stories. Kind of bringing this to a close, but I wanna get some practical things. So what's some practical steps that you think leaders can take to fully integrate the fruit of the spirit into their daily leadership practices in particular I think I think we have to be specific in our prayer, ask the lord for it.
I know we're afraid to do that. We're terrified board... But but really you can feel safe, saying God. Can you can you show me? Because I don't know how.
When I try to do the love, fame or the, gentle thing, it does turn out to be passive aggressive or maybe perm and Mh. And it's not... It's not ex spirit led. I wanted to be the fruit of the spirit. And so practical prayers like that, be detailed in prayer.
Lord grow this in my life. Let this become a part of who I. Know, I don't know how to be this. Not my personality to be temperate or meek. Yeah.
It doesn't have to be your personality. It's his. I love you talking about the fact that we don't need to fear praying those things for the lord to give us those things. It's Right because we've often been told not to pray those things. Sure.
And fear of what may come. And that comes from well meaning people who love us and don't want us to have to go through the process it requires to for that stuff to be born in us. Yeah. But those are the qualities that make us effective in the kingdom of God, and those processes are important and they're and they're healthy. Yeah.
Anything else on practical steps before we move forward, Well, I think I think that another practical step I would suggest is that steps have a way in in terms of the fruit of the spirit have a way of coming to you. So you're gonna have plenty of opportunity. To practice the throughout the spirit. People are gonna bring it. If you are leading people, you will have an opportunity to practice You absolutely will.
And and and so they're gonna... They're gonna bring to you, I've had people say... I've had people say to me before that this is something that again, my wife. So I had someone who they brought something to me. And they weren't they weren't fair about it.
And I felt that they were unfair about it. And I I didn't I didn't appreciate that. They they were they were criticizing me and they hurt and I was kinda shocked by it. I felt like they were not accurate, and that it was unfair. And I...
When I came away from the encounter, I was... It was kind of processing, and I I was with my wife shortly thereafter, and I said, she said, what what is on your mind, I said, well, you won't believe what so and so sad. And I shared it, and she immediately after hearing me talk said, just remember, and she mentioned a tragedy they had experienced in her life. Years prior. And it changed everything.
Just remembering Yeah broke form. They were. I I... Yeah. I just had an empathy for them all of a sudden and and I said, you're right.
Thank you. That changes everything. It's not that they were fair. It's not that I just... I suddenly, but what matter anymore it didn't matter exactly.
And I went to them. And I said, can I pray with you? And I... And I... What I prayed was because what what they were suggesting.
It's not that they were totally in the world it's that they they completely misunderstood, yeah. My... What I was trying to do with the decisions I made. And I... Can Pray with you, and I...
I... My prayer was Lord forgive me for my oversight of this situation and forgive me for not taking into consideration the needs of my brother, and it was it was just a prayer that I felt led to pray, which was forgive me for what I did to contribute to these feelings and and Lord can you restore this, this, relationship wasn't in need of restoration, but restore the goodwill that that we have had and shared and enjoyed. And the man just grabbed me hug my neck, and God restored that friendship. Again, the friendship was never in peril of anything other than the fact that he expressed some criticism I thought was unfair, but but the Lord immediately laid off. Brought that reconciliation.
Exactly didn't become anything more than than what it was. I found that empathy is such a powerful tool. When I feel offended. Mh. I...
If you were to offend me. I do my best. And I'm not always perfect, but I do my best to to step back and just think about where is Joel at life, What's going on in this world, is he super stressed? Is there a tragedy in and his wife. Is there something...
What is going on? And if I will slow down and try to feel a little bit about what you're feeling in the moment. A lot of times I will have a much, much better fruit of the spirit type response with people that I interact with? Absolutely. That's so important.
That's so important. And what fruit of the spirit that is, it can be love, it could be goodness. It could be, gentleness. It could be long suffering because that's what long suffering generates in us. It generates compassion, and that compassion, is often what Jesus would experience before he performed miracles.
I like to say, longs suffering generates compassion and compassion is a precursor to the miraculous. Yeah. Well, as we sort of come to a close with this and start start wrapping up the fruit of the spirit, what's 1 key takeaway that you hope that listeners will remember from our conversation day, what do you feel like is most important? IIII would hope that people would realize that the fruit of the spirit, there is very attainable having the fruit of the spirit in your life. It's...
Don't run from it and think that you can't be that because that's not your personality. It's none of our personalities. Even the even the the the the nicest. When it's the flash, it you used a great term passive aggressive, it it when it's our flesh, it becomes it comes counterproductive But the fruit of the spirit is the thing of the spirit. It's something the holy ghost generates in us.
And so expect it to happen. It's it's it's like going into prayer with a open bible, open heart, open minds. Spending a season of prayer in the Lord. And when you come out of that season, joy grew. Where where did it come from?
It didn't come from you trying to have joy, it came from. There was seed. There was sunshine. There was water and out this fruit. That's that's what it is.
So know that it's attainable. Know that you can live and it you can apply it to your marriage. You can apply it to your parenting. You can apply it to your workplace. You can apply it to your ministry.
It... And you're supposed to. That's what they're there for. These qualities of Jesus Christ that are the fruit of the spirit. This is how nations are healed.
This is how relationships are. Maintained and cost to thrive, and it it's a it's a gift. It's fruit. It's something got once for his people, enjoy it. It's yours, if you...
If you're not confident in letting it develop ask God to help you develop... Help them to develop within you, and he will lead you on the most rewarding journey, and and you'll be blessed then everybody in your world will be blessed because of. Yeah. That's so good. So good.
1 more question, just a personal 1 that I try to wrap up with a with a personal type question. I just love to know with Pastor Joel Ur. Is there 1 or what's 1 ritual or routine outside of prayer? I know you pray. But what's 1 ritual or routine that helps you do what you do as a pastor as a preacher, you know, all the things that you do.
Well, but, you know, when it when it comes to study habits for instance, III love to read devotion, and I and III heard brother the say that. He reads devotion, not... Sermon harmonic. And Mh. That was a big help to me.
Because as, you know, as a preacher you can't help it. You open the vitals start reading and you think all that for each. What right. Let it let it comfort and connect and correct before it and instruct before you have it preach. And so just...
I sometimes I'll enjoy just getting into the the scriptures and reading something I feel like I already know. But IIII like to read it because I know I don't know it like I should. And something's going to come that's new and fresh and life changing, and so I enjoy doing that and gaining information, even even whether it could be taking in a documentary or taking in some kind of a launching into some... A deep dive into a particular subject that is of interest and and in doing that free of any expectation that it will become a servant or become A series or become Mh. What whatever.
Just just enjoy learning. III enjoy doing that. Well, thank you so much. This has been such a rich conversation. I know it's gonna bless a ton of people.
The practicality of it, but also the depth of it, just a tremendous tremendous conversation. Thank you for joining us, Pastor jaw. I greatly appreciate your time today. Well, thank you for having me on the program, great respect for you and the work that you do and the the many lives that are touched because of the type of healthy leaders that are being strengthened about this program. And it's an honor to be able to be with you today.
Thank you for for, Thank you for your kind words. And so this concludes our show today. My name is Ryan Franklin. Thank you so much for joining us on the Christian leader made simple.
Copyright © 2024 Ryan Franklin. All rights reserved.
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