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Every generation faces new challenges, but the core of leadership never changes. In this special episode of The Christian Leader Made Simple Show, Ryan Franklin brings together over 100 years of leadership wisdom from five remarkable voices over this past year: Dr. John Townsend, Joel Urshan, Dr. Brent Coltharp, Charles Robinette, and Cortt Chavis.

Through stories of pressure, purpose, and prayer, these leaders share powerful insights on humility, calling, relationships, and faith, the kind of wisdom that helps you lead from a place of strength and surrender. Whether you’re a pastor, business leader, or ministry volunteer, this compilation will remind you that real leadership begins and ends with faithfulness.

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Transcript

Uh, burn out in the conflict phase because it's so offensive and it's so hurtful, but as a Christian leader, you really truly have to decide: like Jesus, you will not be offended. You have to make up your mind and pray and get God's strength to demonstrate the kind of patience He demonstrates. There's nobody more patient than God. There's nobody more longsuffering than when He walked this Earth as Jesus Christ, and we need that kind of longsuffering.

We have to make a determination: I will not be offended. I will not allow myself to let this hurt prevent this relationship that God has ordained for us to work together, for us to do work together. I'm not going to let it die in this conflict phase. We were meant to move past Calvary and into the resurrection, and you see it in the life of Christ's ministry. They were waving Palm leaves, singing Hosanna, then He was crucified, and then He rose from the dead. It comes back to loving people the way Christ has loved us, so the fruit of the Spirit is constantly at work.

One of the ways I feel helps us to not be offended is to understand what we truly deserve. What do we deserve? We don't deserve salvation; God gave that to us, but that's not what we deserve. So when we are in a position of being offended, it doesn't feel good; it's hurtful. I wish they wouldn't do it, but when I compare that to what I actually do deserve as someone who is a sinner by sinful nature but I've been given the grace and mercy of God, how can I withhold that grace and mercy from someone even if they've offended me or hurt me? I want to release that to them the same way God released it to me.

I like to say this: if you think feeling forgiven feels good, wait till you feel the blessing of forgiving somebody. There's no joy like forgiving someone—that's a special joy that God gave to us to have. Many times, in conflict resolution, especially with pastors who are naturally high in compassion, team players, and have high interpersonal sensitivity, when you add the Holy Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit, sometimes those individuals struggle to present truth in those settings. They skirt around the truth. Oftentimes it's passive-aggressive type behavior; they show lots of grace but struggle to show the truth.

We have such a powerful fruit of the Spirit within us to present grace to an individual that actually enables us to speak truth even more effectively. But people often struggle with that. A person can be trying to demonstrate grace, and it actually comes across as passive-aggressiveness. That’s where pure motive has to come in, and that comes through the fruit of the Spirit. The fruit of the Spirit will neutralize that thing in us that makes us want to make our point because that’s what passive-aggressiveness is trying to achieve. We have to let the flesh die, and the fruit of the Spirit will overcome the flesh.

Cortt Chavis:“I’ll roll over, go right to sleep because I got a ‘go from God’ and a ‘yes from my pastor.’ And that is the thing that signifies who I am, what I am, and gives me the strength to make it through in those moments where you're just like, ‘man, let’s just wrap this up. This isn’t going the way we thought it would go.’

I can’t help but to think, I’ve never heard a church planter say this is easy. And you know, for me to sit here and say I went through hell to grow an effective church — and still, I’m a pastor that is going through some tough stuff — if you’re a pastor, you’re going through tough stuff.

The military really changed me. When I was really young, I was wounded by a family member, and it was a tough season for me. I really feel like I lost my childhood. But what it did is it developed in me anger and a distrust of authority. I really had authority problems. My mom and dad will contest to that, my Sunday school teachers will contest to that, my school teachers will contest to that. I was very rebellious, and I was very angry. I felt like my life had been stolen from me.

And you’ve got to be careful with trauma because what I realized about my trauma is that it became my justification. Trauma is tough. I’ve been there, done that. I don’t wish it on any soul. But if you’re not careful, you’ll shift your trauma into justification. That’s what I felt. I felt like I was justified in my actions. And that’s powerful, because as a pastor I see it all the time. People use their trauma from childhood, or a broken marriage, or a tough relationship, and they use that trauma as justification for an attitude they have, a spirit they live with, anger, distrust… and even sin. People will justify sin because, ‘this is what happened to me.’

Everybody has been a victim of something. The question is, where do you decide to live? Do you want to live inside of this? Will this be your defining moment? I had a huge problem with authority. Then I joined the military. I didn’t even ask anybody, I just went to the recruiter and signed up. I felt like I needed something in my life that would help me adjust my mentality. The military really helped me with that. It helped me understand authority. It helped me shut my mouth, not get the last word in. And it helped me with leadership.

In leadership, you have to be able to take a no and just tuck it in. In the military, a no is a no. No questions, no explanations. And I didn’t realize I had leadership in me, honestly. I felt like a follower most of my life. I felt less than. I felt insecure. But through the military, that weight — that pressure — became something I learned to carry. And that was preparing me for ministry.”

Coltharp: “For me it’s just being with them… you know..being present. And now, it’s not for Rachel. So Rachel — it’s more eye contact, you know, face to face. To me, we can be side to side, if that makes sense. Just in the same car going there, and Rachel is saying, ‘No, we need to sit down, nothing going, and just face to face.’ And so… time, not just time, right?”

“Exactly. Which is harder for a productivity-driven man.”

“Oh yeah, no doubt. No doubt. And so learning that, respecting that. So a lot of times, that’s where our meal time is. We’re not going to be driven by phones or technology. That’s off the table. We have to sit down at the table and speak. And really… it’s embarrassing to say, she really had to pound this into me. Because it wasn’t important to me. You know, I was fed in other ways. To me, we’re in the same room, we can be focused on different things, and I feel close to her because we’re there together.”

“We shared some of our greatest conversations, of course, our first five years we traveled evangelizing. So much of our conversation was taking place on the road — just talking for hours at a time. But yeah, what I’ve tried to do is make sure our dinner time, those nights we’re having dinner at the house, that we are at the table. We use those conversation starter cards, we’ll go around the table — high, low — talk about our high points, low points. And so we try to be intentional about that. Using tools, even just to make it fun, trivia, whatever, to engage.”

Townsend: “So there’s people listening right now that say, ‘Okay John, you got me. I’m convinced. Where do they start in practical steps in building a network of fueling relationships? What does that actually look like?’

Well, let’s start at the top again. Where’s the biggest need? Some people might say, ‘Well, I need an executive coach.’ Well, you’re on this podcast—get ahold of him, right? Or somebody he knows. So go with people who are trusted and just say, ‘That’s my need — it’s business.’

But your need might be something else. ‘I need help with my family.’ Or, ‘I need spiritual growth help.’ Or, ‘I need emotional help.’ So where is life not going on all eight cylinders? That’s where you start looking for the help. And the help’s there.

The second thing, though, is to start working on that life team. And I’ve had people say, ‘I don’t know where to start. Do I just get on the phone or on the web and say, 1-800-find-a-friend?’ No — that’s not a really safe thing to do. So what I always tell people, if you really don’t know anybody in your life that has great capacities, in the book I talk about people who have lots of care, lots of truth, they can be vulnerable. Vulnerability is essential in this. They appreciate structure. They’re not just random people. They have pretty much common values. Not every single value has to be the same but common values. And they want to grow.

And these sorts of things—well, what I had to put together was a little test for that. What you do is you go to Microsoft Contacts if you’re with your Apple or PC, and you go through your contact list. Everybody’s got, I don’t know, between 50 and 5,000 names in there. I did this on myself to see if it would work and it does. And just go through and go, ‘They would fit those criteria. They would help me grow. And they’d be mutual with me. It’s not me fixing them or them fixing me—it’s us fixing each other together.’

And you’ll end up with a list of, I don’t know, 30 people. I mean, you have to kind of take away the people that are currently in prison—probably not a good idea, right? I’ve had people kind of question that. But you’ll get some names.

Then you take the top name and you just give them a phone call and say, ‘Hey, we haven’t seen each other for a while. Can we grab lunch or coffee?’ And what you do in that conversation, that lunch, coffee—it makes all the difference. Because it will take—building a life team takes somewhere between four and six months. You have to be patient with the process.

This is the first person. Yeah, I mean I’ve had CEOs of billion-dollar corporations, and the guy took—he took five months, but he said it’s worth it. He’s been doing this—he contacted me the other day—he’s been doing it 10 years with the same people. It was worth the six months.

And you have a lunch, and you say, ‘How’s life?’ But what you do is you take one vulnerable step. One little—not huge thing about awful childhood stuff, that’s for later—but where you say, ‘You know, my daughter’s acting out,’ or ‘I’m not happy with where my returns are in my business,’ or, ‘Sometimes I watch too much TV or eat too much.’ Whatever. A small vulnerable step.

And one of four responses will tell you whether they get the next lunch to see if this is going to work.

The first group will go, ‘You know, the weather here is amazing and I love the food.’ Well, Ryan, what are they telling you when they do that? They’re not interested. And you kind of freaked me out talking about vulnerable stuff. Well, nice person but not life team.

The second person will say—maybe your problem, maybe you said, ‘My teenage daughter’s acting out.’ ‘Your daughter’s acting out? Yeah, she’s acting out. Okay, first thing you do, there’s 14 Bible verses I’m going to give you now. Do you hug your daughter? You have to hug her night, morning, and night. Also, do you give her a lot of freedom because she needs a certain amount of freedom? And do you give her good boundaries? She needs boundaries. And you got to get her in a youth group. And do you have her in art? Art is very good. And how about sports?’ And, okay, Ryan, what are they telling you? All truth and no grace. All truth and no grace. And I am so freaked out about your vulnerability, it reminds me of my own, so I’ll just be the advice monster. That’s what I’ll do to stay safe. Nice person. Not life team.

The third person will say, ‘Your daughter’s acting out? Yeah. Huh. So are you really a Christian?’ ‘Well, yeah, I’m a Christian.’ ‘I’m not sure because, you see, if you’re really a Christian, you have kids who are just towing the line. And I think you need to think about your own spirituality because it’s probably because something’s wrong inside you.’ What are they telling you? They’re telling you, ‘I’m a judge.’ And I don’t spend a lot of time with judgy people. So all those people—great, nice people—but not life team.

Here’s the fourth one, and this is the one that wins. The person stops and says, ‘Your daughter’s acting out? Yeah, it’s really scared my wife and me, my husband and me.’ And the person stops eating, looks at you, leans forward and says, ‘I’m so sorry. You’ve got a great kid there. How’s it feel? That’s got to be tough. Can I pray for you?’ And they get in what we call The Well of being overwhelmed. And you begin to go, they get me. That person gets the next lunch.

And then you have a few more lunches like that and, by that time, after two or three lunches, they’re probably sharing their story too because so few people, especially in the leadership and coaching world as you know, have this experience. And that’s when you just make the offer and say, ‘I’m getting pretty intentional about my self-improvement and I need some, a few people that I feel like-minded with, that are safe and vulnerable, and I loved our lunches. And are you willing to get together on some regular basis—once a week, once every other week, once a month?’

And 95% of the time, they’ll go, ‘I don’t have this. I’ve had this in my life. Totally, I’m in.’ And that’s how you build it.”

Chavis: “...I was working a job. I worked at an oil company. I was just a regular everyday guy who sang at church — I was a worship leader at church, and that was my role. That was my job. And I really didn’t feel anything else.

Then all of a sudden out of nowhere came this — almost like pressure. I didn’t know what to do with it. I was like, ‘Is the Lord calling me to preach? But I don’t preach. I’m not a preacher. That’s not my role.’

But when God called me to evangelize… it felt crazy. I said, ‘Lord, I don’t even preach. What am I going to do? I can go sing. I’m fine with that.’

And one random Sunday, we were praying. Prophet Johnny Garrison was at our church. Before he came over to me, I heard someone say, ‘Go.’ It was so audible that I turned around to see who said it — and no one was there. Then he walked over to me and said, ‘God told you to go.’

That moment changed my life. It was a powerful moment. I’ve never been the same since. No matter what happens in my life, I’ll always have that moment.

I went through seasons where I doubted it. My father told me no for years — very wisely — but I kept remembering that moment. And here’s what I prayed:

I said, ‘God, whenever this season changes, whenever you shift my calling… let me feel what I felt that Sunday. Because when I felt that, everything else was bitter to me.’

And then one day, I woke up… and it was gone. That fire to evangelize. I didn’t want to leave my family. I didn’t want to fly out. I didn’t want to be gone.

That’s when I knew the season had shifted. And God reminded me:

‘You told me when the feeling changed, you’d listen.’

That’s how I knew I was being called to plant a church. Not because it was the next big thing. Not because of ambition.

I had a go from God — and a yes from my pastor. And no devil in hell can take that away.”

“If you're feeling like the heavens are brass and you're not getting the sound you need and you're not hearing what you need to hear, nine times out of ten it's you that's out of alignment and not God. I'm giving you the benefit of the doubt—maybe there's a 10 out of 10 that maybe—but the reality is it's you.

One of the moments I realized this was when I was 17 at Indiana Bible College. I couldn't hear the voice of God at all. I went to the prayer room frustrated, laying on the floor, weeping, saying to God, ‘I know it’s me, not You. I need to get realigned with purpose, realign my disciplines, get back to fearing God and keeping His commandments.’

In that moment, someone touched my shoulder and said, ‘If you will just fall back in love with God, everything is going to become clear.’ I never saw who it was, but that message realigned me. I realized that ambition without alignment with God’s calling leads to confusion and frustration. Your calling is about being in the right place and following God’s purpose; ambition without that alignment can lead to burnout and misplaced energy.

So, my advice is to focus on your calling first. Make sure your relationship with God is central. Let your ambition serve that calling rather than drive it independently. When your heart is aligned with God’s purpose, your steps, your actions, and your energy all flow correctly, and clarity follows.”

Coltharp: Yeah, great, great point. Yeah, meetings are very much part of what I have to do—a lot of meetings—but I do put those blocks in there. So, for instance, to me it might be a lunch hour. Uh, and I'm a nap person. I love to take—I can lay down and go dead asleep and wake up in 20 minutes in the afternoon. And so sometimes it's me getting a bite to eat, taking 20 minutes just to rest, even if I'm not going to sleep—just resting, relaxing—and I'm ready to go. It resets me. Yeah, and if I have those, and if I can put those blocks of time where I can focus scattered through that, that's a benefit to me.

So for my ideal week, Tuesday is typically my heavy meeting day. That's my one-on-ones. So, direct reports—we are going to have a one-on-one, and that's both the church and the institution. Staff meetings are all built into that day, so Tuesday's a meeting day. But yet, I have other times where they're not heavy meetings. That's the time when I'm going to be focused more on what I have to do and content or productivity. And so just putting that out, it works with a rhythm for me. I found the rhythm that works for me, and as long as I can have that interspersed, it works well.

Where do you find time for rest and play? Okay, well, rest is probably my structure as far as sleep, but I have to be intentional about it. For instance, our vacations—six months apart—we take two weeks of vacation, two back-to-back weeks twice a year. So May and November, it's spread out. I'm going to miss two Sundays, and our team knows that. Our congregation knows I'm going to miss two Sundays. That’s the long-term rest. Then I try to build in throughout the year, too—family trips, traveling, maybe going to speak somewhere for a day here or a day there—to build that in, along with recreation time.

For instance, in my family time—and we’re at a different stage of life—I have a sixteen-year-old at home. My other three children are married; they’re out of the home. You know, he goes with me; we go to the gym together, so we exercise, and we have that time together on a daily basis. But we have daily conversations at the gym, and you know, you’re able to interact with him and just talk about life as you’re doing something productive with your time as well. Yeah, especially something different and productive—both are productive—but especially the trip to and from. You know, in the car, there’s a lot of great conversation that takes place in the car.

So, in your day-to-day, I’m hearing that you take segments to play, tacked on to a ministry trip or whatever. Do you feel like it’s important to find that time to play and do things other than productivity in your week, or does the occasional suffice? You know, to be completely honest, this is probably the area that I have struggled most with.

I’m asking you because I struggle with this. Yeah, no, and I’m telling you—Rachel is such a help because she will bring it to my attention. You know, for instance, at our church, we don’t schedule anything on Mondays. Monday nights are family night the whole year long. We’re not going to schedule— we do, yeah, yeah—and so, you know, of course, we try to have a Monday night family night, game night. One of my sons now lives back in the area, so we invite them over. But you know, the problem with life is that there are always disruptions, and the flexibility to be able to figure out, okay, this didn’t work out—how our ideal week is a Monday night family game night—but getting together for meals, you know, together. So that’s one of the things that we do try to make sure of—our meal time together.

The kids on the weekend—you know, after Sunday—to me, after Sunday lunch is us getting together as a family time. So I don’t do a lot, really, at church, as much as going out with my family, especially that they’re here. Picking a day in the week to do some activity—I struggle with it. It’s something that I feel like I’m getting there, and then, you know, other things adjust. So it’s a constant battle for me to have it structured.

For me, the vacations and other things that I can put in the calendar and block and hold down are what work for me. And then the weekly is where we have to adjust—and I need work, yeah.

Well, what do you feel—you’re talking a lot about family here, balancing family time and all. What do you feel is a critical piece? Like, if you can get this done with your family in a week’s time, that would be a success. Is it intentional conversations with them? What does that look like?

Yeah, for me, it’s just being with them—being present. And now, it’s not for Rachel. For Rachel, it’s more eye contact, you know, face to face. To me, we can be side to side, if that makes sense—just in the same car, going there—and Rachel is saying, “No, we need to sit down, nothing going, and just face to face.”

And so, time—not just time, right? Exactly. Which is harder for a productivity-driven man. Oh yeah, no doubt, no doubt. And so, learning that, respecting that. So a lot of times, that’s where our meal time is. We’re not going to be driven by phones or technology—that’s off the table. We have to sit down at the table and speak.

And really, you know, it’s embarrassing to say—she really had to pound this into me, you know, because it wasn’t important to me. You know, I fed in other ways, right? To me, we’re in the same room, and when we’re in the same room, we can be focused on different things, and I feel close to her because we’re there together.

You know, and probably some of our great conversations—of course, our first five years, we traveled evangelizing, so much of our conversation was taking place on the road, driving, just talking for hours at a time. But yeah, so what I’ve tried to do is make sure our dinner time—those nights that we’re having dinner at the house—that we are at the table. We even have those conversation starter cards, where we’ll go around the table, “high-low,” talk about our high points, low points. And so we try to be intentional about that, using tools, in fact, just to make it fun—trivia, whatever—to engage.

Transcript: Chavis: If you’re not comfortable with your team not agreeing with you, you’re probably not going to move much further than where you currently are. I hope you like it, because that’s where you’re going to be.

You have to be intentional about this. You have to develop trust. And if this is something that most of us struggle with, it’s because of one simple word — ego.

Ego is only one letter away from being “egg,” which represents the fragility of who we are. Our ego is fragile, and it would destroy some of us for someone to say, “Yo, I don’t like that. I think that’s a bad idea because of this, this, and this.”

I always say to my team, “Hey man, be respectful in your comments, but please tell me what you think. Because if you tell me what you think, and we can have a little dialogue back and forth — maybe even what Patrick Lencioni calls unfiltered dialogue in The Five Dysfunctions of a Team — that unfiltered dialogue, man, it’s so important for us to hash things out.”

Let’s hash this out. Let’s talk about this. And if I can’t be challenged, I think this is probably a little more of personal work, Ryan, than it is teamwork.

What I mean by that is, leaders have to make this adjustment internally. I need to be able to let people challenge me. I need to be able to let people hear my thoughts and say, “Hmm, I don’t know.”

Was it Simon Sinek in the book Leaders Eat Last — I think in that book he talks about speaking last. Be the last one to speak in the meeting.

And I try — I don’t always do that — but I really try. Like, if we’ve got something we’re trying to decide, I just start by saying, “Hey, what do you guys think? I want to hear what you have to say.” Because if I speak first, I’ve already diluted the waters. No one wants to challenge what I said.

Exactly. I like to encourage people to stay curious longer. When you’re in a meeting as a leader, because when a leader speaks, a lot of times people will bow to what they want. And so if a leader can learn to stay curious longer and just ask questions of curiosity to their team, it’ll sort of draw the best out of people.

Yes, absolutely. I have a staff meeting every Wednesday, and we start the staff meeting by affirmations. We go around the table — about 10 or 12 of us — and we start with gratitude. Something good that happened. We just start with gratitude.

But we end every one of those meetings with unfiltered dialogue. And some Wednesdays, it’s easy — everybody’s good, we move on. But sometimes, it’s like, “Hey, I don’t like this thing we’re doing,” or, “Someone made me feel some kind of way,” or, “This was my role, but I found out later that someone else did it.”

Those moments — they unite us. That unfiltered dialogue time in our meetings are some of the best decision-making moments, because what you hear — what you need to make good decisions — is honesty, truth, and honesty.

And you really get that in unfiltered dialogue. You get what people are really thinking, how they really feel — not an animated version that keeps me happy or keeps them looking good.

My desire to keep you on my team is your ability to challenge me every once in a while, and let me know that you’re thinking as well, that you’re a leader who deserves to be at this table and not just a follower who I can say “jump,” and you’ll say “how high.”

Now I know that may seem crazy to somebody, because we have this context of, “I’m the man of God, and whatever I say goes.”

But here’s the deal — and this changed my life — and I’ve been telling everybody about this because it plays into this moment:

I am not the coach of my team.

That changes the entire dynamic of what I think about myself as a pastor. I’m not the coach of this church. The coach puts on a suit, stands on the sideline, and watches everybody play — and that’s not what I do.

I’m not the coach of my team. I’m actually a player.

Now, I may be the captain of the team — yes, I’ll give myself that — but I’m putting up shots too. I’m invested in this. I will clean tables or preach a sermon. It doesn’t matter to me. Wherever I get in, I fit in.

God is my coach. His playbook has always been the Bible. And if I need to be reminded of a play, it’s in that book.

And if I can’t get the play directly from the sheet, then I need to talk to the Coach and say, “Hey, what should we do in this moment?”

A lot of pastors and leaders — and I’m not trying to condemn anybody — but a lot of pastors I’ve met really feel like they’re the coach. They’re telling everybody what to do. “Do what I say. Get over here. Do that.”

And what that does is it disconnects the players from the team. It disconnects the players from the purpose.

Transcript: Robinette: Let me just say this — I think that one of the greatest dangers for any person is to be an island to themselves. It doesn't matter what arena in life you serve in — if you're an island to yourself, you are a danger to yourself.

When there’s an absence of voices helping you see the things that you can’t see… look, Ryan, you don’t know what you don’t know, okay? I know that we all think we know everything. We all think we’ve got it all. Yes. But everybody has blind spots.

And if you’re not mature enough to realize “I don’t know what I don’t know” — because of my passion, I have a predisposition to move with intensity and speed. That passion can actually be one of my blind spots. This is a reality.

Because I know that, I cannot endanger my family, my calling, or the gifting that God has put in me by acting like I’m an island unto myself who knows all, sees all, and can do all. The greatest gift I can give to the call of God, to the gifts of the Spirit, to the ministry — whatever role I play in that — is a man or woman of God who can say “Stop.”

That’s the greatest gift I can give to the call of God on my life.

Brother Woodward is that for me. Brother Woodward is my man of God. When I’m confronted with opportunities that seem so awesome, I can’t trust my blind spots. I’ve got to go to somebody and say, “Look at this from every angle. Tell me — is there a danger here that my excitement, my intensity, my passion can’t see? Where’s the danger?”

Because my kids are depending on me to be a man who finishes well, because my wife is depending on me not to be a man who fails, I cannot allow myself to just… fools rush in. Isn’t there a song or something like that? Fools Rush In.

This is what I’ve tried in my life — not to make that mistake. Not to be the fool that rushes in, no matter how excited or passionate I am. That’s where I stand on submission.

When I look at your life, you are a high extrovert. You push the boundaries; you push the limits. And when I’m working with a leader, there’s a little thing we call “rule breaker” that pops up on an assessment — it rates a leader on their amount of rule breaker or lack thereof.

Typically, it’s common that high extroverts have low impulse control and a high rule-breaker tendency. And I would say that’s probably true of you — you’re good at pushing the limits, and that’s actually a positive thing.

I’m a rule follower. Even Brother Woodward — he’s that guy in my life — he’s more of a rule follower, more in the box. I love my box. I want to live in a box. You want to push the boundaries of that box. You want to live outside the box.

But guess what? People like me and Brother Woodward need people like you — and you need people like us. That is so true. We bring balance. You’re going to push…

 Urshan: And I think it’s a great point to make because there’s nuance there. A person can be trying to demonstrate grace, and it actually be passive aggressiveness — and they don’t even mean for it to be. That’s where pure motive has to come in.

And that comes through the fruit of the Spirit. See, the fruit of the Spirit will neutralize that thing in us that makes us want to make our point, because that’s what the passive aggressiveness is trying to achieve — we want to make that point.

Something’s not dead in us; we have to actually let it die. We have to let the flesh die. And it’s the fruit of the Spirit that will overcome the flesh.

So instead of bringing someone in and trying to demonstrate grace — but it’s really your flesh that’s trying to produce the grace, and not the Spirit in you — because the flesh is still alive, you come across passive aggressive. Or maybe you may not even come across that way, but you’re still being that way.

You want to be able to speak the truth in love. And you want to be able to say, “Okay, this is the reality — these are the things that need to be addressed.”

One of the things that’s so important is to really, truly check yourself. Do introspection. Make sure that you’re on the righteous side of this issue.

Because there may be — in this prayer, in this time of being in the presence of God, opening the Word of God, letting the Word of God not just comfort you but correct you — you can many times find, “You know what, I’m actually the one who is complicating this issue.”

I’m the one who’s being... and I’m speaking for me — there have been many times where, in prayer and studying the Word, I feel justified to think the way I’m thinking and feel the way I’m feeling.

But I’ve mentioned a sensitivity to pride. I know me well enough to know I can be dead wrong and feel like I’m the one who’s right.

And so, going to the Word, letting the Word correct you, letting the Spirit speak to you — that’s another thing I was talking about when I said I hear the voice of the Lord.

I’ve had the Lord say things to me that — man, if somebody else had said it, I don’t know how I’d respond. But He says it with such love and such grace.

But it’s true. And He’s not skirting the issue. I feel like the Lord said to me one time, “You’re acting like a Pharisee.”

And that was a hard thing to hear. But because He said it — and He’s already persuaded me that He loves me — that’s the key: persuading people that you love them.

That doesn’t just mean making them feel like you love them or gaining their trust, but that they actually know for sure that you do.

I call it connection before correction.

There’s a huge difference between speaking loving things and truly loving. For instance, I take issue when I hear myself say, “We’ve got to show people love.” We do — but don’t just show it. Let it be the reality.

Don’t let it just be a performance. And I know we don’t mean it that way — we mean for it to be real — but sometimes our language complicates it.

We can think that if we show love, then we are loving. But that’s not always the case. We have to actually love the person.

And when you speak to them with love, after you’ve taken time to check yourself — you may be the one that needs to repent, the one who needs to go to them and say, “Hey, I didn’t treat you right. I didn’t take your interests seriously when we made that decision.”

It may be us that needs to do the repenting.

And once you can find closure on that front, then you can go to them and address the issue head-on. You speak the truth in love, and then your voice will have the same effect that the voice of God had with you — when He spoke so lovingly, yet truthfully, about what you needed to change.

The fruit of the Spirit actually helps you do away with passive-aggressive tendencies, do away with making subtle points just to get something off your chest — and instead, deal with the issue in the Spirit.

Because speaking the truth in love is really the only way truth can be spoken.

Townsend: I have a concept in the book called the seven C’s to help clarify this for people — there are these levels of gain versus drain, depending on the kind of person they are. It’s an easy way for leaders to think through, “Where am I putting my time and energy?”

Now, having people in your life that drain you isn’t all bad. If you’ve got a six-month-old baby, that baby’s going to drain you — and they should! Their job is to depend on you until they grow. The problem isn’t that drains exist, it’s when we don’t balance them with relationships that replenish us.

The top level is what I call coaches — anyone who specializes in helping you grow. That could be an executive coach, a counselor, a pastor, or a mentor. They don’t need you to meet their needs; their entire role is to help you develop. That’s a high-nutrient relationship.

The second level is comrades — your “life team.” These are three to seven people who know everything about you, care deeply about you, and will tell you the truth without judgment. They want to see you grow, and you do the same for them. That’s the circle every leader needs — people who make sure you’re not leading alone.

Then there are casuals — people you see occasionally, like a friendly neighbor or someone from church. They’re positive and light-hearted; they refresh your day. Some of those can grow into deeper, more committed relationships over time.

After that, you have colleagues — people you work alongside. You can’t always choose them, but the research is clear: the best work environments are filled with people who are both competent and relational. If you can, surround yourself with colleagues who collaborate well and care for others. That makes your leadership sustainable.

Now, we start to move into the more draining relationships — but again, that’s not bad. The next category is care — the people you’re responsible for. These might be those who are less experienced, struggling, or in need of support. Maybe it’s a young leader you’re mentoring or someone in crisis. These are the people who need your investment.

And here’s the point: if you’re always giving and never receiving, you’ll burn out. Leadership legacy isn’t about endless giving — it’s about coaching others while also staying connected to the people who pour into you. You reproduce what you receive.

If you build a life team and surround yourself with coaches and comrades, you’ll stay replenished enough to invest in others for the long haul. That’s how leadership multiplies — through intentional, relational coaching.

 Coltharp: Yeah you know and and and maybe um you know the scripture talks about dwelling according to knowledge and one of the things I started to realize a part of my mission is to see to see the success of my family. So I feel like part of my responsibility is equipping, training, uh counseling, launching — it is for my family. So I feel successful when I see Rachel succeed, when I see my kids succeed and what God has called them. And so part of me as a father’s and a husband is trying to understand their personality, their temperament, their wiring — they’re all different — and then what can I do to help facilitate what God is calling them, how God wired them, the passions they had, where they can succeed. And so I try to adjust to that.

For instance with Rachel my wife — incredibly gifted — um her her voice in my life I, you know, uh her carefrontation. We we don’t use confrontation, carefront. Her carefrontation has shaped me, developed me. You know I believe marriage is one of the uh principal ways that God works sanctification in our life. And uh seeing our… but we’re very very different. Very different.

And you know of course that’s friction at at the beginning of a relationship, you know. Uh as I… my favorite definition of normal is you know the family you grew up in. And when two people with two different definitions of normal come together there’s going to — there’s going to be friction. You know in fact uh my my wife uh we had been married 20 years and she sent out this this tweet. She said uh she said uh happy anniversary to Brent 20 years of marriage the best 17 years of my life. And I started to get some uh text from friends — yeah yeah — I started to get some uh text messages from friends and they’re like, “man your wife she’s so funny, you know she’s so witty.”

And I started laughing cuz I didn’t even know, you know, she had posted anything and of course that’s how I found out. And she says, “what are you laughing at?” I said, “they think you’re joking. They think this is a joke.” No — we had some friction until I learned to appreciate our differences and then to use my strengths to help see her thrive.

And man that — when I had that realization — it’s the same thing leadership in a local church. The team members that I have, that I serve with here or Ur anywhere else, is part of my role and responsibility is to see them drive in their calling. It’s not just about my calling, what God has for me. There — it’s an interdependent relationship.

And and so when I began to see that, man we really truly became a team then — respecting each other, assisting one another. She helps me in so many ways uh that she is confident at, she is good at. And then there are other areas that she moves aside and I take the lead because of of my strengths and it works together. And I also feel that to my children — is for me to understand them and how can I come alongside them and help and prepare.

Urshan: I would hope that people would realize that the fruit of the Spirit — it’s very attainable. Having the fruit of the Spirit in your life, don’t run from it and think that you can’t be that because that’s not your personality. It’s none of our personalities. Even the nicest, when it’s the flesh, it becomes counterproductive. The fruit of the Spirit is the thing of the Spirit — it’s something the Holy Ghost generates in us. So expect it to happen. It’s like going into prayer with an open Bible, an open heart, and an open mind — spending a season in prayer with the Lord, and when you come out of that season, joy grew. Where did it come from? It didn’t come from you trying to have joy; it came from the seed, the sunshine, the water — and now there’s fruit. Know that it’s attainable. You can live in it. You can apply it to your marriage, your parenting, your ministry, your workplace — that’s what it’s there for. These qualities of Jesus Christ, the fruit of the Spirit, this is how nations are healed, how relationships thrive. It’s a gift — fruit. Something God wants for His people. Enjoy it; it’s yours. If you’re not confident in letting it develop, ask God to help you develop it within you. He will lead you on the most rewarding journey, and you’ll be blessed — and everyone in your world will be blessed because of it.

I wish I could say that I’ve always been able to hear the voice of God clearly, but that’s not the case. I don’t think there’s any leader, man of God, or person in any role who has always known exactly what to do or had clear direction at all times. My journey has been very unique. I wasn’t raised in the church. I grew up in Chicago, Illinois. My family wasn’t really in the church—we owned a bar for a season in Chicago. That was my upbringing.

I went from living in Chicago to receiving the Holy Ghost and getting baptized in Jesus’ name in Ypsilanti, Michigan. Then I joined the military, running from God. I don’t believe the Lord told me to join the military, so I definitely didn’t have clarity in that season. But God was faithful. Over the years, from the military to ministry, to AIM work, to becoming a missionary, to international evangelism, there have been many things that have contributed to learning how to hear the voice of the Lord clearly.

One of those things was making mistakes. I thank God for every time I didn’t hear His voice clearly. It only takes one or two times of thinking you’ve heard from God and stepping in the wrong direction to realize, “I’d better not do that again.” I’m grateful for those failures, those mistakes, and those misunderstandings when I thought I had things figured out but didn’t.

One of the greatest, most valuable lessons I’ve learned about hearing the word of God clearly comes down to three areas. The first is the Word itself—getting into the Word of God. The Word will always be a clear and sound reflection of His will for your life. Developing a personal, intimate experience with Scripture—not a casual or Sunday-only relationship, but a daily walk with the Word—helps me become more familiar with the King: His voice, His direction, His purpose in my life, where He’s going, where I need to go, and how to stay in alignment. If you don’t have that intimate relationship with the Word of God, you’ll always have a fleeting, inconsistent experience with His direction.

The second area is having a pastor in your life. This is so vital. If I truly want to hear God’s voice and know His will—no matter what the opportunity looks like or how excited I am about it—there’s always a necessity to bring it to a man of God and ask, “Sir, what do you think? Here’s what I’m feeling. What are you feeling? What is the Lord saying to you?” Having that honor, respect, and trust in the man of God—enough to entrust him with what seems like a dream come true and to give him the freedom to crush, reshape, or delay the dream—has been one of the greatest gifts of my life.

Many people are fearful of having someone in their life who can help navigate and direct, but I can tell you, one of the greatest gifts God ever gave me—beyond His Word and beyond the Holy Ghost—was a pastor. Somebody who could speak into my life and say, “Charles, thus sayeth the Lord.” When you have that, there’s a deep trust and confidence that you’re on the right path.

Every pastor isn’t perfect. There’s no pastor who’s perfect. Everyone is human, made of flesh, and has the potential to get something wrong. But when you trust the spiritual leader in your life and submit yourself to him, that is always right in the eyes of God. If your pastor misses it, but he goes to prayer for you because he loves you and wants you to walk upright before God, and for whatever reason he doesn’t get the situation right, God will still bless you for trusting and listening to the man of God.

Ultimately, that’s what’s so powerful about submission to spiritual authority. If your pastor gets it wrong, God will help him get it right. And even if it looks like there’s a delay in the fulfillment of what you were supposed to do, God will always—good measure, pressed down, shaken together, and running over—make sure He accomplishes His purpose for your life.

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