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Next Level Leader with Dr. Eugene Wilson

Join us for a great conversation with Dr. Eugene Wilson as we unpack his newest book, Next-Level Leader. In this episode, we explore the essential qualities of effective leadership, including stretchability, resilience, and the challenges of loneliness that many leaders face. Dr. Wilson shares practical strategies for managing chaos and maintaining focus in uncertain times, along with biblical insights that can guide your leadership journey. Whether you're a pastor, church leader, or business professional, you’ll gain valuable tools to elevate your leadership and thrive in your role.










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Transcript


Is... This is a topic that nobody gets up and says, man, I wanna have a difficult conversation date day. Well, I take that back. I did work with 1 person that seemed to... And she was a lot to work with every day because she always want to come in and get on everybody and stuff.


So... But I think what it's so important is you gotta normalize this within your organization that you can actually have these conversations because, you know, in in in churches you know, people may not save things in the meeting, but they wake through the parking lot and they're like, oh, Brian bless his heart. I can't believe he wanted to do that. You know, and so to actually be able to do this and to have these conversations that matter. And talk about it.


I think it's really important. Welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. I really hope this episode helps you learn and master the skills you need to grow your leadership effectiveness and enjoyment. Be sure to hit the subscribe button to get notified as soon as I post a new session so you don't miss the single episode. I'd also greatly appreciate any reviews, likes and shares that you can give me.


It just helps me extend my reach to more people. So leaders? I know just how frustrating it can feel when you're in the weeds of work or ministry and life is chaotic. You're struggling to feel effective, and you're just not enjoying leadership as much as you... Could be.


And so to help you, after many years of leadership and executive coaching, I've developed a framework called the Christian leader blueprint that'll guide you to find clarity in your life and leadership. It'll help you gain a better rhythm of life It'll help you see yourself more clearly to leverage your strengths, and you'll produce more productive relationships. It's a step by step guide to leadership transformation. And I have that in 2 formats now. I have a free short guide that you can find on Ryan franklin dot org, and I have a book, the Christian leader blueprint.


And you can find that in any format, including an audiobook book. Wherever you buy your books. I have a few more things on my website that you may be interested in, so just head on over to ryan franklin dot org and check it all out. And now, let's get to our session. Welcome back to the Christian leader made simple podcast on the show today, we have a very special guest, doctor Gilbert Fu.


With more than 20 years of experience in higher education and ministry leadership. Gilbert has honed a sense of working with organizations to build health and high performance that will create measurable results and success. Gilbert holds a doctorate and organizational leadership, from Pepper University, and he's served in a variety of roles such as the associate vice President and Dean of students at Concord University Irvine, gaining valuable experience and leading teams through stressful situations. He's currently a professor at Townsend and Institute. That's where I'm met him executive coach, and he's also the c host of a tremendous podcast called Tips, Townsend and Institute Podcast series.


Today, I've asked Gilbert to come on the show to help me unpack and help you master difficult conversations in leadership, and I think you're gonna get a ton out of this conversation. So here we go. So with that said, Gilbert welcome to the show. Ryan, thank you so much for having me. I love chatting with you and love talking about difficult conversations.


I don't always wanna have them all the time, but good to good to chat about it. I understand. And and I would think with your high interpersonal sensitivity, the way that you love people so much. I happen to know that because we've been around each other quite a bit. Yeah.


But I I would imagine that that is a difficult thing for you and something that you've had to learn and sort of hone in your skill in that. And I'm excited to jump into that conversation. But before we do that, in that into the actual topic. I want you to share maybe some key moments of of your personal journey that got you to where you are working here at at Townsend Institute as a professor and also as an executive coach. Oh, thank you.


Yeah. So, you know, my journey... It's it's an interesting 1. Right I, you know, With college out at Concord court and Nebraska and and didn't really know what where I was getting into, and then I came out to California to work at a church, ministry for a number of years. And then then thought, you know what?


I think God's called me to work at a at a college. And so, roll opened up at in concord Cor University in Irvine And I got there, you know, and everything was great. I started to note 7. Wonderful, really loved it. Then all of a sudden, we had a few budget problems.


And things started happening. And I thought, oh my goodness. I have left a nice, great job at a church where there was lots of stability. And now is everybody getting cut. And so, like, you know my first year there, they release, like, 40 people, they let go of a lot of folks, and they combined a bunch of jobs, and they said, hey, gilbert, Do you still wanna work here.


You're running a student life you're running all this. And it's been a tremendous blessing to be a Concord cor during the the ups and downs of of. I mean, usually, higher ed is not on the cutting edge of things, but we were... We beat the nation to the recession of 08:09. We were there about a year early.


And so... Those were some pretty hard conversations to have with folks, you know, as different ones aren't weren't there anymore. And but then as I jumped into, you know, after a few years, it became the Dean students associate vice president. Really learned through a lot of prayer, lot of training, how to have some difficult conversations with with folks, you know, students and parents and and other people, and then, God led me over to the Towns institute. Where I've been teaching now for little 4 years and doing executive coaching, and and I just really love that path.


Yeah. Well, I can tell you this, Townsend and Institute is a phenomenal organization. I've I've had the privilege of of going through the program there, and it... It's definitely changed my life. I could imagine with you being there, you know, in the in the weeds of things so to speak and and seeing I guess rubbing shoulders with all of the instructors and doctor Townsend and then different ones for, the last 4 years Out...


I would imagine that that has made a, tremendous impact on you as well. You know, Ryan? It really has because there are things, I think in my gut, I knew probably someone wasn't a aligned right, but until I really learned the growth model in a tune minute and all these things. It start to click then. Right?


That probably things I had missed out on, and and you know, people... Things I had missed and conversations I missed. Relationships that I didn't, maybe value or or get as much out of and and so then the to just a whole bunch of those things have been powerful for me to learn and really as impacted my life, I was in a program called the Townsend leadership program when, around 20 20, and I had a really difficult career career transition. And that really helped me as I joined the Town's Institute to go through and and really see where God was calling me in life. Yeah.


And that is a tremendous program. It's called a Tl for short. And I had the privilege of going through your Tl last year and such a phenomenal learning experience. There's there's accountability and processing and learning, and all kinds of things in that. And is that is that just for townsend and students?


As trick question. I love it. Love trick questions. You know? That's great.


No. Anybody can join. And anybody wants to do growth. They wanna learn and they wanted... Jump into some hard hard difficult conversation, sometimes, in 1 accountability.


It's great program. So... Yeah. Yeah. What's your website in case they wanted to check out more of that?


Sure. It's WWW doctor gilbert fu dot com. Alright. I'll put that in the show notes and in in case someone wants to check that out. And and and please don't judge me with the website.


Right? I did the best I could. So there's some that have a lot more bells and whistles, but I think it... It works out. You know?


So... I've looked at it, and it works just fine. Yeah. So I know you pretty well now after a few years of of interacting with you, you know, even having some like this Tl having some... Yeah.


Deep level work with you and you've even throughout the program if we've done 1 on 1 coaching together as well. You've coached me. But I know that you have a knack for difficult conversations. And so I've asked you to come on the show to to help us unpack this for the audience because This is something that I know that every leader deals with. It's or every Or if they don't deal with it, they ignore it and and it and it and it just causes issues and and problems.


But it's something that every leader must face and that's difficult conversations. In fact, with my 1 on 1 coaching. When I coach individuals, there is never a a client that I don't dive into the subject with. Because it's it's just hard. And so why don't you start by talking about why This is so important for leaders to master the ability to have difficult conversations.


You know, Ryan that? It is... This is a topic that nobody gets up and says, man, I wanna have a difficult conversation day. What, I take that back. I did work with 1 person that seemed to...


And she was a lot to work with every day because she always want to come in and get on everybody and stuff. So... But I think what it's so important is you gotta normalize this within your organization that you can actually have these... Conversations because, you know, in in in churches, you know, people may not say things in the meeting, but they wait through the parking lot and they're like, oh, Brian bless his heart. I can't believe he wanted to do that.


You know? And so to actually be able to do this and to have these conversations that matter and talk about it. I think it's really important. And II1 reason it was important to me is because I look at the bible and Jesus had a lot of difficult conversations. Right?


I I mean, I always think about Peter. It seemed like every little bit. He's had to have a difficult conversation with Peter. And so I think it's true. As man Peter.


What's that? Wild man, Peter. Wow, man Peter he just would go for it. Yeah. I wanna walk on the water.


I wanna do this. So which I think is fun Of that hey, he might be having a fun fun guy to hang out with. But, you know, and so as we think about these difficult conversations, if you as the leader can normalize this, you encourage this, and you can participate in it. You know, if if I'm... If you're working for me, Ryan, And I'm doing something that is really not aligned with what needs to happen or or I'm off base that you can go and talk with me about it.


That is critical. And that shows everybody else. Oh, okay. This is really part of the the organization because... And Too many times leaders will say sure.


My door is always open. Yeah, you can do it And as soon as you do it, they shut it down, and that is a way to to do the kind of the freeze effect within your organization. Nobody's gonna come and say anything anymore. So... Yeah.


So what if somebody doesn't engage in this, what what could be some of the things some of the results of that. If somebody does not engage in and and, you know, act... Like, addressing something that maybe they're not aligning with the culture of the church or the or the organization, the the educational institution or whatever. They're just not aligning They're they're causing issues to some degree If they... If if a leader does not have a difficult conversation with that individual, what what's the result of that?


Well, I think, probably all your listeners, they have pretty good idea what happens. The first times is right, You're you're good... Your rock stars they leave after a while. They go, oh, okay. So Yeah.


What we say we expect from folks, really we don't... Expect that. And we're gonna... We're gonna just kinda let mediocrity accuracy rule the day. And or maybe manipulation.


And so they they go... We're we're gonna go somewhere else, and you're gonna lose your really good ones. And then the ones that like to be part of this kinda of toxic culture. They... There they'll stay or they'll cause even more problems.


And so you really get this culture of of toxicity that that happens, and and then it's even hard to bring in good people because if I'm a rock star worker if I'm doing a lot, I don't even wanna tell my friends to come work here because I'm trying to get out. And so so then you just... It's a very, very hard cycle to break if if you as a leader are not engaging in it because then it's not a safe... Place for people to really grow. It's more of, hey, keep your head down, do your thing and and watch yourself.


Yeah. And I... I would say, at its core this is the the typically, the the very foundational piece that creates a toxic culture is. Lack of good conversations about difficult things. Mh.


Yeah. Yeah. I've I've worked with folks that, you know, unfortunately, you know, they they say, hey, I'd love to know, and then you tell them, and then they spend 45 minutes explain to you why you're wrong. Well, that means... That means I'm not gonna go and tell them again.


Any feedback because they obviously weren't weren't open to it. So... Yeah. So 1 of the main reasons I I want you to come talk about this is because in the townsend and institute program. We learned at 8 step model for difficult conversations that I feel like is a...


It's lights out. It is a powerful model It's it's something that, you know, I'm not good with with memo, but this is something that I have memorized and have put put the time in and effort in to really dial this in in my life because let's face it when we're in difficult conversations, the emotions are high. We're not gonna be thinking straight Mh. In that moment. So it gotta become natural to us?


It's gotta be something that flows from us. But I I think it starts with actually just learning a model such as this 8 step model this townsend and model. Can you sort of walk through those 8 steps. It's 8 8 steps for us, and we can talk through them a little bit if you want or you can just talk through them yourself. Absolutely.


Because, you know, as you mentioned earlier, you, I did church work for a while. So I was the I was kind of the fun gap. Right? And and and then I went and did student life. And so then when I switched the Dean student role, not so many fun conversations.


Oh always. So when I got to exact coaching. Sometimes you would have to, you know, talk to people and and when I was open supervising folks. So. Here's some good, I think 8 step model that that works well.


And sometimes you can skip steps if... It's depending on relationship, but I think it's it's important not to to skip over right away. The first 1 is the 4 you stands. So You know, Ryan, If I'm calling you into my office on 03:00 on a Thursday set of meeting with you. You know I'm not gonna give you a pony.


Right? You know, you know there's something that we need to discuss, you might have an idea what it is. You're you're, you know, drilling and everything is is really high, cortisol maybe even at... What's what... What's going on, walking in.


So you wanna have a 4 you stand right away that you you put a person on the same level. Hey, I'm for you. Right? I really think you're important to this organization. I wanna see you succeed And just so they know that.


Let them know that you get your forum. And even say, hey, you know, I really appreciate all your bring to the church the way you do this or the organization, the the initiatives you've done be truthful with them. Don't don't tell them things aren't right, But let them know that you kinda take down that inner judge right there. And then you state the problem. So let me...


Before you move on the problem. I've I've heard people say, do a positive sandwich. Sandwich the negative in between pods. I I hate that first off. Yeah.


I do not like that because it feels so, and it feels like you're setting them up for something. The the... I'm for you stance I would say that that that that more entails what you and I know is quadrant 1 nutrients. Right? Which would be things like, you know, speaking words of acceptance or validation.


Or affirmation and who they are. And I would say anybody that we're working with, even if there is... Even if there's an issue that we're having to address, we can always find something that is affirming about that person or or validating to them. Person or, you know, or comforting to that person. Would you agree?


Yeah. Yeah. I and I and I know what you're talking about with a sandwich. It's it's a... I think a little bit different because we're actually att we're trying to to connect with them to say, what you do is import person Right?


And and you have made some positive things. So they realized, okay. They're really connecting with me here. So... Yeah.


But I I get it Nobody wants that that sandwich. So... Yeah. Then, once you've get a att, you connected with... You know, it's interesting when I do this in class, I had I had 1 student she was from, I think...


Internationally was, like, Z is Zambia. I think it was... And and she goes... She... She was a lawyer.


She was goes, I... That really... That's hard for me. This first step of being for them because I'm so mad at them right now. You know, as...


They... They've done some things that that have really miss, you know, thrown off my business really... Causes us to go backwards. So to to take the time to really before them was critical for her to get in the right mindset. So the next thing you need to do is state the problem.


So keep it at 1, you know, think about behavior, performance or relationships. Something out of those 3, and have a specific example ready in case you need them. And and here's why. You know, right? If I go well, I don't know.


Sometimes I feel like you come in kinda late to work or maybe not get your... You don't get your reports done on. Well, people kinda... What do you mean? You know?


So you gotta be specific. You gotta you gotta talk to him. I mean, it's gonna be land somewhere typically in behavior performance. Or relationships within your organization? And would you say you're saying keep it to 1, would it also be important to say it in a simple form as possible?


Yes. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. It's to keep keep it simple, and and I encourage you to take notes, you know, as you are getting ready.


So you you can even kinda glance down so that you don't get off track if you need to. I mean, if you can say this in 1 sentence, that's ideal. Right? Because Yes. Because a lot of times people, you know, they're...


Especially people, that have a high interpersonal sensitivity, like, I would say you have a high interpersonal sensitivity. Thank you. So... But typically, people with high interpersonal sensitivity wants to sort of beat around the bush a little bit with the with a hard truth and maybe be a little passive in their approach. And I think that's why it's so important to remind us to keep it short, keep it simple.


1 sentence if possible, 2 sentences at at most, And and that way the problem is out there, and then you can Then you can con continue on with the process, the 8 steps that as as you continue. You're right. Because you don't wanna talk yourself out of it after you say it Right? Oh, yeah know. Yeah So Yeah.


So... So that goes into the next part, though, you're gonna put it out there. It's now out in the ether. Right? It's out in the world.


You said this problem between you 2, which hopefully, is not a complete surprise because you've probably said something before or they have an idea. Sometimes it is a surprise. But then your own, your part, you know? And and this is what it says. Most people are like, well, what do mean?


I don't have any part in this. Well probably had a little bit. And it might just be, hey, maybe I wasn't clear on what time I need you to come into work. Or you know, maybe I let it go a little too long that you know, when you come into work, I need to, you know, kinda dress a certain professional way and, you know, not wear flip flops every day and stuff like that. You know So it's different things that I wasn't clear and now it's gone on a little long, but I wanna clears up before we we keep moving forward on us.


Yeah. That's good. And there's always something that we can own and even if we're not we haven't... You know, really contributed heavily to the problem? We can always find something and and can I ask you what does that do to the person when you own part of your pro?


Part of the problem? You know, ryan. I I believe for them for me too when peaks people to have these conversations for me. It lets me know, again, I'm not a I'm not alone in this that you're actually mh. Partnering with me.


You want me to succeed. You want the organization to succeed. You know? When I've had to have these conversations. Sometimes, it's typically Hey.


You know what at first. III didn't say something right away. And I apologize. III should've have said, actually, this is really important you send this report in on time because if not, you delay. You know, you know, other people, you know, Eric and bill and all them from getting their their their things done.


And so I'm I'm sorry I I didn't address this immediately. That's good. So then the next 1, with this is a really critical 1 here. This is 1 that, especially working University, and probably in a church work world where people are paid to talk. Right?


Some some people are really good at talking. They're gonna... You have them talk given them their side. Right? They're gonna say, okay.


Yeah. I I didn't do this. I didn't get this initiative, launched at the right time or I didn't, you know, get this advantage of them going. And here's why. And they may have some new information that you need to take in.


But, you know, only give them up 2 or 3 minutes. Maybe 3 minutes of the most, and then you say, thank you, Ryan for sharing this, but let me get back to. And if they continue to say, no. No. Did and they just keep hammering on things.


No. Let me get back to it. And then if they really can't do it, then you kinda have to stop the process for a minute and zoom out and go, you know what? What's going on with us right now? I I just...


I kinda wanted to talk about this and you you really fight me on this. How can... How can we have these conversations? And so so this is the part that you're gonna hear their side, but you're also gonna dig into... What's going on If there's a lot of defensive or inner or judge that's that's really impacting the conversation.


Yeah. That's good. And and if there's a lot of emotion in their voice whenever they're given their side. Which often there is when you're when you're having to have difficult conversations. It's also, I would say would be really important to be empathetic to them.


Yes. And and key of the emotion sort of att to the emotion, would you agree, So before we continue on with the podcast, this episode is brought to you by Christian leader, community coaching. Are you a Christian leader who is overwhelmed by the complexity of trying to figure out how to grow your team? I wanna introduce to you our Christian leader community coaching program. We have an easy to use online platform that has a full archive of courses, supportive community, live group coaching.


And elements that are customizable specifically for your team. And I've personally seen the quick and enormous impact that it can have on a team of leaders who are focused together on learning and mastering the skills needed to grow their leadership effectiveness and enjoyment. And we wanna be a part of that with you. We wanna help you create and implement a plan. The community is very much affordable But I would say that you can't afford not to have focused growth within your team.


Your results heavily depend on it. So don't wait any longer. Let's do this together, go to ryan Franklin dot org and join Christian leader community coaching today. I look forward to seeing you and your team inside the community. And now back to our podcast.


Absolutely. Tum is is really critical. And as as we say here right there, remember the human part of the human. Right? He...


The child of God because sometimes you think about, okay, This task, I have to get this done this difficult conversation, but remember the child of God and, you know, prayer enter into these difficult conversations. Yeah. Because if I'm if I'm if if if I'm telling you something, telling my side of the story, you're confronting me, I'm telling my side of the story, and it's... You know, I start crying or whatever and you jump to the next. Topic.


I mean, that's that's gonna feel like, well, you know, Gilbert doesn't care about me as an individual. He just wants to push his agenda and what he wants done. And and so I think that's a it's a very important piece of the puzzle to to really have a good, hard conversation. Absolutely. There may be some times where you have to table it and go...


Okay. We're gonna have to come back to this. I didn't realize you were static or... You're poor Your your kid is your child is sick or something's going on there at the house. And because you're right.


You don't wanna be that guy. Goes, okay. Yeah. Yeah. You just told me, you know, you have cancer and all these things.


But do you think you can get your budget in by next week. Right? I mean, then then you've completely missed. I've god Called you to treat people. So...


And and the thing about that is is is it is it creates another level of safety Mh. Between you and that individual when you att to them? And and here's the deal. There's been many times where I've where I've had hard conversations and and I realized I'm wrong at this point, You go. Yeah.


And I need to shift... I need to shift gears, and what I was thinking I had it played up in my head differently. Mh. And, and I'm wrong after hearing this individual. How does how does that go?


Well, when you can be curious, and be able to take it in with fresh eyes. And that... That's where I think this model is helpful. Both people are getting time to to communicate and and express it. Then that that says a lot for again as a leader if you can go know what I was wrong on this part, and so let's let's adjust, that's that's really that's really helpful.


And then... Because then it leads into the next 1. Us... You want request 1 specific change. You And if they've said something that's kinda changed your mind, Maybe your your request changes, You know?


But... Yeah. If if you still, you you've done it and it kinda played out the way you thought it would, then you have to be specific in the change, not just hey, Ryan Buddy, Try harder. Right? I mean, you don't you don't wanna do that.


But you you gotta be specific. Like, I need you to get here whatever be harder look like. Try harder. Make sure you, you know, you could do it. You know, Don't don't do that.


But You... Hey, You know, I need you to get this in, you know, Wednesdays is at noon. I gotta have this report in or, you know what? We have an event. I gotta have you follow up within a week to and and to people and then check and make see if they wanna connect in with their church and things.


So that's where some... Yeah. And so what if this is... What if you've requested this change, but this is the third time you've had to come to me and request this change. What then?


Well, then it depends on where you're at an organization. So if you're a supervisor to someone that you you supervisor, you could say, okay. Well now we're entering into the, you know, the Hr world, I'm unfortunately, we you know, improvement plan because we've tried to go this way. And that can be really hard. But if it's another colleague or even your boss, well, then then it's a little harder because then you kinda have to set up some boundaries.


Like, you know, if it's a colleague, hey, you know what? Ryan? I really wanna see you succeed and do well, but I'm actually not gonna do your job for you. So I'm gonna I'm gonna put a boundary up that I'll, I will help, but I'm not gonna do this for you. And this is what I'm willing to help with.


But but this this is what you get take on, and I'm not gonna do that anymore. Which that is step 6 is giving consequences. Yeah. So the consequence could be. A boundary.


Mh. Or or even, you know, in your case in a in a more structured and official world. It could be a rep man, a written rep man of some sort or you know, but it could be just in a just a social and emotional boundary even. Yeah. It just depends on the nature of the of the of the conversation.


Would you agree? Absolutely. Yeah. That it it can be a boundary. It can be...


You know, because this this happens in families. You know, I I talked to a person today. Right? That their their mom was so toxic that they had to put boundaries up. They just couldn't be around them right now.


And and and they they had to be careful on how much... Personal time they spent around them. And so, you know, 1 person, I know 1 1 colleague, she she did a a big event, National gathering. And she was working with a city, and she did all the logistics. And the city, wouldn't...


It was in Houston. They didn't wouldn't open the dome. Right? And in or close it. Yeah.


They wouldn't close It was a summer. It was people were, like, passing out and stuff. And so she finally had to have meetings with the city and she used this model and said, you know, consequences like, we gonna get a big refund on our money. People are gonna get hurt. You have to close this.


It is way too hot to have that. And so... But she able was able to prayer enter into this, use this with some folks, you know, you know, we're so much in the Christian world. And it worked out fine for for both of them everybody walked it way happy when they actually looked at what was going on. So the the the consequences you're right, it can be very hard to set if you you...


You know, if it's you were... Your supervisor you're talking to or another colleague or certainly a family member a spouse or something. So that's a that's a good point. And I would say that the consequences, the more times you've had to come back and address this same. Issue the stiffer the consequences should should get.


Right? Yeah. And you, you know, at at some point, they've made the decision for you. You know, I you say that with students. I never kicked the student out.


They kick themselves out of of of school. You know? Yeah have some point, we've done this. It's obvious this is not working. And so you may not...


This may not be a good place to to work anymore, You know, that now you a little harder to just remove somebody from a family that that usually doesn't go so well. But but, you know, in an organization, You know, if you can't do that, if you if you're not aligned, if you're not gonna do that, then then we would like to bless you with the opportunity to work somewhere else. And so, yeah, after multiple... I would say, certainly no more than 3. Right?


But and by the third 1 you made it quite clear. You know, we're not gonna have a fourth conversation on this topic. So... Yeah. Which becomes even, I mean, that's even a more difficult thing even in in the church world, you mentioned a family.


I would say, the church world is kind of an in between a family and business. I mean, these are people that feel like family. Yes. A lot of times and it it makes it even more difficult to stiff in the the consequences. But at some point, you know, for the sake of the organization for the sake of the culture.


I think you've gotta eventually lead... You know, you may have a lot of grace, lot of long suffering, but eventually, you've gotta you've gotta you know, stiff in the consequences. Well and and Ryan, you can make a good point because what about volunteers. Right? I mean, they're volunteers are time.


Because that's exactly. So I I know when I worked to volunteers. Yeah. Okay. You you pushed it a little a lot of stuff from volunteers that we went from an employee.


Yeah. Sure. Yes. Because they're volunteer their time. I mean, I was working with a pastor today, and he said, well, my board of elders, you know, he needs to take a a sa schematic.


Well, if I say no, they're gonna go to another church. So, of course, I'm gonna work with him, even though it's gonna make a whole lot more work for me on how to make this happen. So... Yeah. Yeah.


It's... I mean, most of the time with volunteers, we're just needing more bodies. That's true. Yeah. To find the the...


We almost take anybody, and then and then sometimes we regret that because sometimes not the right right fit. But the reality of it is as many times if we can effectively. Do these tough conflict resolutions. Mh. It it brings a good resolution.


Yeah. There there is times that I've implemented this that I've done this, and it had gone so well for me. And but it's it's far and few between. I would say, you know, I... There's no way I could...


Put a percentage, but I would say 95 percent of the of the individuals that I've used this model on to help deal with something. In my ministry or or in my life. It's worked for the most part. You know, 9 out of 10 times, it's gonna work. I think that's...


I think that's pretty good. I'll I think we'll we'll give you that's... I think you're statistically Correct. I need to learn how that word right. But you know, because most people, if I say, hey, you know Ryan?


I need you to do... You know, I need you to come to work on time. Right? I need you... You know, when you when you're talking to somebody, maybe address them this way or or maybe wear this.


It'll go, oh, my goodness. I did not realize that was the expectation. I'm sorry. I'm gonna do better. But then you always start gonna have that 1 bill.


No. That's that's who I am. Right? You gotta live with me. And so, that doesn't land quite as well, then you gotta have...


That's when you have to have a more conversations and they may not be aligned. But most people, you're right. When you have a 1 talk, that's gonna that's gonna land with them. So and an that that goes back into the next 1, Right, which is the 4 stance. You go back to that.


Right? Step 7. Step 7. There you. I bet I forgot the number the set the steps here, But you're...


So, yeah. That's the that... You're like, okay. So we've had these difficult conversations. Here's a consequence you know what?


I'm... I wanted to just bring it back in your mind again, we're for you. We want you to do well. We want you this organization. And so it's kinda like...


I only think in sports. Right? The the trouble you have is when you're coach... But Quit yelling at you. Right?


When they've given up on you. And so so with this, not that we're gonna yell at, but we're having these conversations, we still believe they're part of the future of this ministry and we're excited to have them there. Yeah. And I would say, the psychology behind that would be you're essentially filling them with good positive relational nutrients to start the conversation, but you also wanna end, Yes. With filling them with those good positive, because let's face it.


The the truth hurts a little bit. It's gonna be painful, especially the the harder the the conversation is the more painful it's gonna be. And so who gotta be very intentional about slowing down and giving those good relational nutrients that are gonna fill them back up. And and that's... That looks like acceptance validation you know, telling them how affirming their their role in the organization or or you know, telling them how much you care for them and and value their expertise and skill and and what they what they bring to the table, You know, that sort of thing.


Correct? Absolutely. And, you know, even in in in the towns of growth model, we talk about the soil, grace, truth and time. So there's just Yeah. Meeting their grace is before truth.


So word given them the grace of how we connect with them and in some truth. And then we're gonna go back with the grace. We're gonna kinda wrap that all up. So they realize, hey, you know, still the quadrant 1. We're att to them.


We know that was hard. And but thank you for standing in here with me in that hard place. And then step number 8. Right? Where You I go.


I said it. Number 8. So then you wanna check back in with them. I mean, how many times have you or someone up, maybe our listeners they've had a difficult conversation or somebody said something at work. And then it...


It's like it's never mentioned again. Right? We like, we did. We just we just ignore it. Right?


And then there's this weird awkward, you know, part behind it, and and, you know, there's never really any closure. So check back with a person not in, like, 10 minutes. Don't have a conversation come back later. Hey That was really hard while you think about it. Like, yeah.


I just got done with you 10 minutes ago. But give me an hour or 2 or or give them maybe the next day. Don't know way longer today. Check back in. Hey.


How are you doing after our conversation. Do you have any questions. Again, reiterate, tell them the 4 stance. Again. I I just...


I wanted to let you know I had that conversation with you because I'm for you? Really love what you do in organization would you bring to it and and I wanna move forward. And we're not trying to start anything up and that. We're just checking on them because, I mean, I don't know how many times that you, you know, I've had to have hard conversations and I've done this. I've checked in with them, you know, the next day or something.


And they've worked it over in their heads. Like, they've beat themselves up. Like, I'm Yeah. I'm no good. I'm I'm, you know, they're they're really struggling at that point.


And so just checking back in will help, you know, sometimes you check back in and they're, like, oh, man, so glad the air was clear there. Yeah. I feel so much better. But sometimes it's... You know, I need to tell...


I need to affirm to them again or I need to you know, validate them again or bring acceptance to the table again. Or even att to them again. Mh. And just fill them back up with those good relational nutrients. That gives you the opportunity if you check back in with them that step 8 to to to kinda see where you're at with that.


So I love that. And and you, you know, you might be responsible for a sleepless night for them. If if they, you know, they're having viable processing and so you're right during the air, So then they're not brood and and and kind all of this that it... It's worse than what it actually is. Yeah.


Exactly. So, that's that's 8 steps. Can you just quickly kinda summarize that and run back through those 1 more time and short form. Yeah. Would you be okay with doing that?


Absolutely. So the first 1 is, again, the 4 you stands, letting them know that you're for them and get your tuning them with them, like in the quadrant 1, like we talked about the second 1. State the problem. You know, 1 problem, keep it simple. A sentence are less if you can, you know, at least once not like a paragraph too.


But try and keeping this simple, 1, again, it's gonna be behavior performance, attitude maybe relationships on that and then you're gonna own your part, which again, it may just be, hey. I I let this go on too long or I wasn't clear, and then you're gonna hear their side. 3 minutes of the most, and then you say the magic words, thank you. Let me get back to and you had redirect a conversation. The the next step is you're gonna request 1 specific change.


And it may vary a little bit after you take in more information for them, but most likely have it written down before you get in there. And then if needed, you're gonna set consequences. So if you don't do this, Here's what's gonna happen, then reiterate the 4 you stand. Go back to that and then check back in with them again and let them know you're for them. So that's it.


That's the 8 steps. Such a part... It... And it may sound simple as we... As you run through those and as we've talked through them, but it is not simple.


It's it's it's a... It's difficult, But it gives you a model and... Or gives me a model. Let's just let's just say me. Use the eye statement.


Well, I feel very comfortable moving into a hard conversation knowing that I have... A model that really is a solid model and it really helps, it helps, you know, me kinda walk through that. Now there is times where, I may get caught off guard, Yeah. With a difficult conversation. Somebody comes to me and I don't have time to prepare.


U. 1 thing that I do is in the back of my head as a quick go to. I think grace, Mh. Truth and grace. Mh.


If I can remember that, the other stuff is gonna kinda come to me. Yeah. But I wanna I wanna lean in with grace because I... I... I'm such a truth oriented person.


You're more of a grace oriented person. I'm more of a truth oriented person. So I've gotta combination. Right. We're you're an excellent.


Anything difficult. Just. Yeah. That'd be great. But I've gotta remember, Ryan, slow down.


Don't just respond with truth. Don't just fire back with truth here. Ryan give some grace, then give the truth. And And you know Ryan, that you make an interesting point here because I do lean more towards the grace. And that actually hurt me as a leader when I would I would do that because I would give people so much...


Grace, that then the ones who were doing a good job. They were wondering what the expectations actually were. And so I had to learn, and that's in that book. People fueled talk about it. I had to learn not to people that hold them to expectations and be able to know they're not a Yeah, delicate China at all.


They can handle this as we walk into some of these these difficult conversations. And responsibilities they signed up for with their job. They weren't... You know, I didn't have anybody court mandate. Had to go work for the organization I was at So...


Yeah. Yeah absolutely. So... Shifting a little bit with with some additional questions related to this. I know that you're you're, I would consider you to be an emotional intelligence expert.


You know a lot about it. You teach on it. You know, that's a lot of what executive coaching is. You even are certified with with emotional intelligence 2, I think if I'm not mistaken you... Yeah.


Yeah. Yeah. Good. Good memory. Yeah.


So... Yeah. So So So what is... What go ahead. I, I was gonna say, you know a lot about it and then implementing it are 2 different things.


Sometimes my wife might say I need to go back to school again on that. But that's okay. I feel I feel you're pain on that 1. I love it. I love it.


But but with that said, what role do you feel emotional intelligence plays in navigating those tough decisions? You know, I I think what really... Discussion excuse me not decisions. Yeah. Might certain decisions, but I think what really...


You know, Hinder leaders isn't... They're not self aware. Of how they're coming across. Right, With the emotional intelligence when they're doing difficult conversations are just leading in general, They don't realize the wake, they create behind them, You know, when they, leave a room even. Or when they enter a room, Oh, my goodness.


Here comes Ryan today. I wonder... What are we getting the nice Ryan, or are we getting the, you know, gonna crack the whip dictator Ryan. And so the that that makes it really hard for people to, perform at their best. And so when, you know, leaders think...


Well, I just need to get the task done. Everybody else just do their job, and we don't need any other relationship nonsense. They're they're missing out on so much. And actually, their Roi for their organization is gonna be less because people aren't gonna be engaged. They're not gonna really trust.


To so many difficult things that when the leaders not self aware, and when they they don't think about the wake or the the way... What they're creating behind them, that that really hinder them in the organization. Yeah. And what about, even, you know, starting with just understanding maybe what I'm carrying into the room, Like, you know, part of emotional intelligence is knowing what's going on inside of you. Yep.


So that you can regulate what's what what how you're gonna interact with individuals. Mh. Do you have any tips or thoughts on, you know, as as you walk into a difficult room? Yeah. How to how how to help you know?


With most? A few things I think of when I've... Had to go into difficult conversations or difficult room or meeting or whatever. First, to spend time and prayer. Right?


Spend time and prayer that Yeah. You will be open and curious and honest, pray for, I folks even if you're really frustrated, pray for them. Also just brings a sense of humility too, doesn't it? Yes. Yes.


I never pray. I prayed... I... In sometimes, I would, you know, open. With a prayer.


I would try to open 1 of a prayer if I if I could if Was in the right situation. But I remember meeting with a a student once and a lawyer, and I was very nervous about this. And actually it turned out when we laid it out, the lawyer, actually Kinda I looked into the students say, hey, you know what, that they're not wrong. That you need to make these changes. Right?


And it was a very... I think a a great learning moment that I I really felt like God made it happen. And because, you know, open openness prayer and into what needed to happen. So prayer praying if you can, in the meeting. And then also make sure you're doing the things like the self care to make sure you're doing, you're okay.


Try and make sure you get the right amount of sleep. You know, make sure you're exercising, you know, make sure you're eating correctly. Those big things there. If you ignore that, that really, really hinder how you're gonna be as a leader and when you go into these. Because if I'm if I'm tired, if I have ate terribly...


If I have an exercise in a week, you're gonna get a very different gilbert then 5 5, you know, try to take care of myself a little bit. So... Yeah. I 1 other thing that I like to do as well is... You're, really just name the emotion that I'm feeling right now.


Yeah. So if I'm if I'm a little anxious over this over this conversation. Yeah. You know, I I sit and think if I have time to do this, I'll sit for a moment and think, hey, Ryan, What are you feeling? Okay.


You're anxious. Why aren't you feeling anxious? Because... And I'll and I'll kinda talk that through in my head, and it actually brings a calm to me many times And it it it helps me helps me know what I'm bringing into the room of of the discussion. Whether it's a a negative emotion or a positive emotion, It just helps me settle in and and and know what's going on inside of me so that I can you know, bring to the table, the the authentic and the and the reasonable Ryan.


That's right. You know, you... That's a great point. And and sometimes, you have to think about what's triggering you. If you're feeling a certain emotion, Okay.


What's what's going on here with this person and that's it's a great point. I I love that, Ryan? Yeah. What's what? I mean, you know, what's at stake?


Know, is this... If this person... Is this person a volunteer that's heavily dependent on. And if they leave, you know, it's it's gonna put a whole lot of extra work on me. You know, understanding that will help me process through.


And and actually still have the conversation, but come to come to the table with with a little bit calm calmer emotion because, you know, as doctor Townsend has said many times, I forget the... The neuroscientist scientist that he quoted this from. But if you can name it, you can tame it. Oh, If I can name the emotion containment it. Dan Siegel.


That's right. Doctor Dan Siegel. Yes. So you can name it, you can tame it. Yes.


Yeah. Absolutely. You know what? I I reflect on. I I worked with person named the Christie once.


And I remember she... There was somebody that we were gonna use for a class and she just. He did not wanna use use him as as an instructor. I And it turned out he had really triggered something and which she just didn't trust even though he was fairly trustworthy... I thought he was trustworthy, But we had to work through that.


Right? We had to kind have a conversation on okay. What's going on behind here. Where it's really doing that. And it, you know, andrew is kind of a what they call corrective emotional experience that he wasn't the same person that she kinda initially maybe believed he was.


So... Yeah. Well, you named a lot of things there that that helps create a safe environment for that open dialogue during conflict. Anything else that you'd like to add to that? You know, 1 thing I would say if you're a leader and you need to have or just anybody here, that's listening this.


Don't go in a lecture. You know, don't... The big mistake I see some leaders is they call in there and it's I'm gonna set you straight, and I'm gonna give you a 45 minute lecture. Don't do that. Treat people as precious gifts of god.


They are children of God. Remember their their humanity and enter into it as truly a dialogue, yeah a conversation. Not a conversation. Right? I've I've entered introduced some people it's just...


They're just gonna talk to me, but, no. A conversation, you can have a truly do this and then see you know, find a resolution that that's gonna work well. Yeah. I think dialogue is a key there. You know?


Yeah. Not a dictatorship conversation where you're doing all the talking only. But a dialogue and being able to really dial into that individual empathetic, I think is a is an important thing. Absolutely. Yes.


So are there any common pitfalls that leaders maybe could avoid when having these difficult conversations or or and now we've kinda covered that a little bit, But... You know, I think a pit they often has is sometimes a leader walks in of their mind already made up. Right? Yeah. And to actually be open.


That's good to a different opinion. Because sometimes even though you are a brilliant individual. Right? You've you got lots of of breeze and you've that away from them. No.


Don't you don't downplay. However, there might be a chance, you're off on this 1. And to actually come in with an open mind that God gives you that, you know, so that you can be curious and and think about it. A little bit that or I think a pit that some leaders go into. They've already made their mind up.


Very good. Very good. Yeah. Anything else on on pit pitfalls? I think that's the big 1.


Again. You remember the humanity, you go with a open mind, you don't lecture. And, I, I think just really, remember tuning a tuning, the quadrant 1. If you... If you don't do that, it's and you skip...


You skip right to truth, then then you've you've really gonna hinder the success of of this conversation. Because. I think probably all of us right now they're out there and our leaders, we're having problems. Maybe not everyone. But most people are retain...


Retaining employees. They just leave. Right? They quit managers. And so if you create a organization where, feedback can happen, growth can happen, and you're willing to be a part of it as much as they are.


Right? You're willing to to have these difficult conversations and participate in it. Then more likely, you're you're gonna get people to stick around and truly buy it into your mission. It creates such a good culture when you have when you have the ability to lean in health to this difficult conversation. Absolutely.


So people who are struggling to get this started like to initiate difficult conversations. That would be something that as you have mentioned a person with a high interpersonal sensitivity, a lot of times we'll skirt around and struggle with that, You Mh. You mentioned that you you've struggled with that in the past, What advice would you give to somebody who's struggling to land end of that? I think you find a safe person that you can say, okay, are my expectations out line? Because sometimes your view of, oh, I think I'm really pushing too hard.


They're gonna go, no. No. That's very reasonable. Right? That's reasonable to expect somebody to be able to work at this level.


Right? If if you're talking to for a church leader, it's reasonable to expect them to come on a Sunday morning to work. Right? I mean, it that's... You know, so finding somebody that's a safe person and our life team member that you can talk about these things.


I I think that is really critical and I I see when people... Because sometimes leaders will isolate themselves. We'll put themselves on the island, and they don't reach out. And they they they they... You know, and and we'll do this as caring people, we try and take more and more on, And then what happens eventually, I found this out when I was, like, 38, and I got shingles.


Right? Your body eventually, it catches up with you. Right? If I'm trying to hold everything on there, it you're you're eventually 1 way or another, it it it doesn't land well. Yeah.


And so with that, as we sort of bring this to a close and and wrap up that. I've got a couple questions, general questions, I wanna ask you go for a leader, But before we do that, is there is there 1 key takeaway or or anything that you would like listeners to really remember regarding difficult conversations? Absolutely. It is like when you first go out on a day with somebody. It is going to be awkward.


Right? As you learn this skill, riding in a bike or anything like that, it's a muscle that you are developing and so give yourself grace and just know, hey, it's gonna take a little time to learn this to... So don't expect perfection the first time. You might be. Right?


You might be the king of difficult conversation. So if you are, you can just fast forward this part, But for everybody else on the world, just give yourself grace, know it's gonna be a little awkward, and, you know, it's even better to role play this a few times of folks who me... But even if you you can't just know okay. The first few times, it's gonna be hard. Yeah.


It's gonna be hard. And I love your thought of leaning in to people around you. Yeah. Like, maybe a life team member or or an executive coach. Mh.


Or There you go. Or maybe your spouse even to practice these going through these steps with. In fact, that's 1 of the in my life. That's 1 of the areas that this is has benefited. Probably more than any other.


It's just my day to day life, family, conversations with my wife and my kids. It has helped tremendously. That's a good place to start because you're gonna have a lot of opportunities for for heart conversations there. Surprised me enough, my kids give me opportunities all the time to practice this so... Yeah.


Regularly. So Gilbert, you as a as an individual. What's your biggest challenge or your biggest obstacle in leadership currently in your life? You know, I would say now it's changed. Right?


Within the last few years with more... Remote work and hybrid stuff. I would say time management in that, even today, I don't think I did a great job of planning my day because it... Because you can do... It used to be at least you'd walk from 1 building to the next.


Right? Now if I have for Zoom meetings which gives me ability to to work with people all over to place and had meetings, because my team is remote here to Town Institute. And so we have people over to the country. But the problem is it's... My...


1 meeting done at 10. Next 1 month starts at 10:30 next one's at 11, Well, boom boom boom boom. And and and so I think the time management being able to give yourself a little margin life. That is 1 of the biggest things I find my leadership today is making sure you still have that margin because now we can work wherever we're at. And it's difficult to that is, what are you doing to try to tackle that in your life?


I know you've struggling with it even today, But what are you doing to to to tackle that. You you know, I think it's being present when I'm at. So to realize, okay. I got this meeting scheduled. I need to be present at, and I need to make sure there's enough of buffer plan next initiative or wherever, so I can be present with that.


And sometimes even scheduling, and I believe you said this in your book. I like this. Scheduling time with yourself. Right? That you schedule times intentionally whereas you meet with yourself when you're gonna go over initiatives and things.


And I think I need to do that more because I'm quick to give up my time for someone else, and I need to be more intentional on on that. Yeah. Would you consider yourself a structured person or an unstructured person typically, naturally. 0II think I would... Or somewhere in between.


Probably in between, I will lean more towards the, like, just going for it, but I know I've had to create structure, like, my to do list and stuff if I'm learning accomplish. More of a learned, more of a learned structure learn thing. Yeah. So with that said, what's 1 key ritual? And this is the last question.


What's what's 1 key ritual or routine that helps you do what you do? Because you do a lot of tremendous things. Thanks. I mean I'm a part of a a few of those things and and love being a part of it, but what's 1 ritual routine that helps you do what you do well? You know, I think a a morning routine, you know.


Me, I like to start honestly reading the bible a little bit every morning. But then, I think as for as a routine, I have made it where I don't wanna do any work, you know, after, like, 05:00. If I can at night. Right? That there is a beginning to the today and an end into the workday day.


Now there sometimes times. Right? I teach a town institute. They have night classes. So there's a lot of times I'm doing stuff at night, but that there's a routine because my kids are home from school I don't want them just remember oh dad has been in the office, all all...


You have young kids, so that's very very important, even more important for you. They still wanna talk to me every once in a while. So, you know, even... Yeah. It's still...


That's for for a few more years. I love that. So you have... Because you're... You...


I mean, with you working mostly out of your home, you your days could kinda run together your evens and and and days could kinda run together. And so putting a certain stop time to your day. I think would be, I love that. That's that's really important. I know a lot of pastors out there, a lot of the business workforce, but especially a lot of pastors you know, it's hard to differentiate AAA work day with an evening.


And so figuring out how to do that as much as possible. But given yourself some grace as well for when you do have to have, you know, it'll be. There'll be seasons, but then make sure that hasn't become just life. Right? So just being able to recognize, yeah, There's a maybe a certain season that you have to, but not the whole time.


Well, thank you so much, doctor fu if you get to for joining us here, greatly appreciate your time today. You're an amazing person, an amazing leader and professor. And I just... I I value our friendship so much, and I wanna thank you so so much for allowing. Our audience to kinda get a glimpse into your world and for you to be able to speak into their world and in regards to these hard difficult conversations.


So thank you for that pastor Ryan, it's an honor privilege genuine time to be able to hang out with you and and do this. Thanks for having me. If people wanna connect with you online, where would you recommend they go? Well Well, you can check out the Townsend Institute. Right?


So WWW dot c y dot edu d u slash townsend and townsend Institute and there's a lot of information there. You can also look on my website. W w dot Gilbert fu dot com. So tell tell briefly and brief form what is Townsend and institute for those that may be new to hearing in that? Yeah.


So the Townsend institute, it's a... It's with it's with Concord court University or Irvine a school within concord court University or Irvine. We have, masters and certificates, masters and doctorate programs, but we have organizational leadership, executive coaching, consulting, and counseling. So a lot of great programs, taught by Christian faculty members, use the towns of growth model. Doctor Townsend our founder.


I, I hope you check it out. Yeah. 3 tracks, coaching, leadership and counseling counseling. Yep. And phenomenal, phenomenal, institution.


I've referred... I think maybe about 10 people. So far... Or I've had about 10 people, actually at 10. You you might be the individual record holder for the most referrals.


Right? I mean, we need to keep track of this. We we need to keep track of it. Maybe I can get some commission or something from it as well. Yeah.


If we can do that. You know? I'd that'd be great. I'm kidding. I'm kidding.


Okay. And it is a wonderful school, and I believe in at that much that I have recommended a ton of people to it. I also want to mention that the tips podcast again Townsend in Institute, remind me. Town Townsend Institute Podcast series. Yeah.


Yes. Townsend Institute podcast series. I'll put a link to that in the show notes so that you can find that. Thank you again for being here, this concludes our show today. My name is Ryan Franklin.


Thank you so much for joining us on the Christian leader made simple podcast.


Copyright © 2024 Ryan Franklin. All rights reserved.

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