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Stop Trying to Fix Your Church... Do This Instead | Pastor Rodney Shaw

  • 7 days ago
  • 10 min read

Updated: 9 hours ago

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Leading change is one of the hardest things a pastor will ever do. Get it wrong and you don't just slow the church down — you fracture trust, divide people, and spend years rebuilding what you lost. In this episode, Ryan sits down with Rodney Shaw, author of Feed My Sheep: A Handbook for Pastors, to walk through practical steps every pastor needs to know before leading change in their church. If you've got a change you know you need to make — this conversation is for you.




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Transcript


Welcome to the Christian Leader Made Simple Show. My name is Ryan Franklin. Every pastor I know has a change that they need to make. Maybe it's a ministry model that's run its course or a staffing decision that just keeps getting delayed, or vision that's been cast to a congregation or a team but never actually gets off the ground.


The problem usually isn't the change. The problem is that leading change is one of the hardest things that a pastor will ever do. And if it's not done well, it doesn't just slow the church down. It can actually fracture trust. It can divide people. It can cost the pastor years of leadership capital. And that's why this conversation today matters so much.


It's an important conversation. My guest today has spent decades in the trenches of pastoral ministry. He pastors in Austin, Texas, and over the years he's navigated building programs, staffing transitions and campus relocations and a ton more. And he's done it all while shepherding real people through real change.


He's the author of four books, including his latest, *Feed My Sheep*, a handbook for pastors, which we're going to get into today. And I would say that it's one of the most practical, field-tested books on pastoral ministry that I've come across. He doesn't just write about leading change; he's actually lived it out.


Pastor Rodney Shaw, welcome to the Christian Leader Made Simple Show.


**Rodney Shaw:** Thank you so much.


**Ryan Franklin:** Thanks for having me.


**Rodney Shaw:** I'm glad to be here. It's an honor and privilege to be here and to talk to you and your listeners.


**Ryan Franklin:** Well, I appreciate you taking your time out. I know you're a busy guy with a lot of million things going on.


**Rodney Shaw:** Well, everybody's busy, so...


**Ryan Franklin:** Yeah, no doubt.


I want to ask you to come on because I want to talk to you a little bit about your book and even a specific topic of your book. But you open your book with a warning sign at a tide pool that says, "Many people have drowned here." And you read that sign through the lens of ministry when you read it—what did ministry actually teach you about leading people through change that you never saw coming as you were going into ministry?


**Rodney Shaw:** Well, that was an interesting experience because we were on vacation. And every pastor does this—every preacher does this—you know; you're trying to rest and you're on vacation, and everything you see looks like a sermon.


But when I saw that sign—and like you mentioned—I have kind of a replica of that in the book—and that message just kind of stood out to me.


I think one of the things that really stood out early on as a pastor leading change is that people accept change on an abstract level but they don't necessarily accept it on a practical level.


So if I ask a church how many of you want your church to grow? Everyone's going to raise their hand, right? But when it comes time actually enact the change necessary to make the church grow—that's where the rub comes.


What I've found is all of us have some aversion to change—I do—and so there's this natural resistance within most people.


There are some guys who live with chaos of change all the time and thrive on it; most people don't enjoy that—they have some aversion.


Having this sense or idea that on one hand we're talking about change and everyone's raising their hand saying affirmative things—but that's only at an abstract level; when it gets practical is where pushback begins.


Also realize people often have deep emotional connection to past that brought them present: whatever is present—even if it needs changing—is result of years-long process sacrifice commitment; people are emotionally committed to journey that got them there.


Starting undoing or unraveling can feel like loss for people.


Of course I knew this academically—I think most leaders do—but when we start actually leading through it becomes brutally present—we have deal with actuality of it.


**Ryan Franklin:** Yeah...and I guess in that it feels like people have drowned or are drowning in midst of change?


**Rodney Shaw:** Yes! Leaders can—that's challenge: individuals can feel like drowning but leader can feel overwhelmed too—it can feel suffocating sometimes.


I've talked with younger pastors—they're excited initially—harvest low hanging fruit—make easy changes—and then hit wall; happens almost every pastor: ride wave then hit wall—it’s suffocating—it feels like drowning sometimes—a good way to describe it.


**Ryan Franklin:** Yeah!


You wrote before “a pastor must know what he can't change” before touching anything—that sounds simple outside—but how can pastor figure that out? Why important?


**Rodney Shaw:** That can be hard especially if new pastor in new environment—may assume some things should be touched but get bitten when they touch them realizing they shouldn’t have changed those things.


For me this begins with leadership philosophy from my first book *Church Work*: we need follower-centric version versus vision-centric understanding of leadership.


By this I mean leadership ultimately helps people mature—not starting point being grand vision requiring changes—but starting point is what’s helpful/healthy for these people: what do they want? Need? Where are they in journey—not just where am I or what church needs?


Starting point recognizing unchangeable things is putting people before vision—not letting people become subservient to vision but making vision subservient to people.


With follower-centric view: may not build building or ministry model wanted but are people healthy/engaged? When beginning with this mindset more willing patient negotiable with visions—better position for success.


Simple questions like: where do these people get identity institutionally? Sometimes seems petty: e.g., bake sale for 30 years might seem trivial but may give meaning—drill down beyond operational perspective figuring where meaning comes from then decide what changes necessary versus what's just annoying me—many things annoy leader but may be personal differences/opinions/personality—have wrestle with must-change vs annoy-me issues.


**Ryan Franklin:** Can I interrupt for second?


**Rodney Shaw:** Sure!


**Ryan Franklin:** What I'm hearing is empathy—you want to get into their shoes see their experience/reason behind passion/emotion around issue—that’s important piece of change right?


**Rodney Shaw:** Yes! Empathy big part effective leadership—even if not used language much—it’s key way describe/articulate this.


Strong visionary leaders sometimes come in as wrecking balls driven by vision heard from God (hopefully) without considering real people at stake—every person falling off wagon means momentum lost—not only momentum lost but losing participation means years needed replace/disciple another person—and losing consensus means losing purpose for being there originally.


Vision-centric vs follower-centric: putting vision above everything wrecks all for sake of vision setting back years if consensus lost; church leadership hard!


**Ryan Franklin:** Go ahead...


**Rodney Shaw:** We have delay...


What comes mind is John 1:14 & 1:17: grace & truth—the truth is vision/goal; grace part is getting into well with them understanding passion/emotion seeing them where they are—that grace first per Scripture makes huge difference process.


I talk about shepherd metaphor surviving centuries including New Testament urban churches—the metaphor goes heart pastoral leadership—we are shepherds present with sheep living with them literally sleeping among them shepherd frustrated sometimes but never abandon sheep always present—that metaphor fits pastoral leadership well as you've said being in it with them physically & emotionally present always there shepherding regardless frustrations & challenges


**Ryan Franklin:** You came into your church with tons forced changes all at once—tell us what happened? How did you know when pump brakes & keep stability?


**Rodney Shaw:** Let me mention first: went back school management class told don’t change anything first six months entering job—but don’t agree fully depends circumstances—you’re hearing caution changing too much too quickly—but had lot forced changes so...


I pastor New Life Austin here Austin Texas; my wife & I here from beginning—entirely different story maybe share sometime—we were involved before founding working in church work prior; Brother & Sister Bernard moved Austin started New Life joined together; served assistant Bernard 17 years then unplanned unexpected pastoral transition then became pastor now 16th year senior pastor almost equal assistant years


People ask about transition building program many things church


When became pastor everyone excited but grieving too—we’d launched capital campaign year or two prior begun building program total campus relocation site permit started site work parking etc just begun when became pastor


Church didn’t want new pastor launched massive building program $13 million project (about $19 million today) Jan 2010 effective date—I managed building program builder’s rep chairman capital campaign chairman building committee no one else project owner


Financially strapped didn’t replace executive pastor role so senior & exec pastor same managing transition nobody wanted


Sold our building part deal cash finish project still under construction final year buyers occupied building lost gym kitchen classrooms baptistery fellowship space left auditorium men’s & women’s restroom baptisms offsite kids hour before service makeshift kids area auditorium offices strip center entire ministry crushed project delayed multiple reasons


Top leaders employees thought I'd fire them anxious unplanned transition caused fear anxiety


Felt job not bring change church had forced changes my job lead continuity say nothing changing anything stays same traditional format still wear suit & tie probably only one Austin few fundamental Baptists wear suit & tie forgot tie once member asked if theological identity changing because forgot tie had bad experience transition decades ago tie was first step many steps led different theological church so small thing triggered anxiety unpacked reasons resist change chapter *Church Work*


Leadership not always about change sometimes preservation targeted intentional preserve season focus early years pastoring looking back not perfect some changed slipped hands changed campuses short staff some inevitable


**Ryan Franklin:** Change brings stress obviously forced into lot church forcing changes building program bad timing but Lord’s will had happen—you recognized extreme stress around knew couldn’t implement unnecessary changes brought continuity stability amidst best possible way


**Rodney Shaw:** Take step further many systems needed changed still working today every pastor experience e.g., assimilation work progress even started prior transition many needed systematic ministry growth changes lacked resources couldn’t implement yet seasons know need change vision says must move forward reality says lack resources cultivate manage continuity cost disruption without resources net loss no leader enjoys resources also emotional capacity pastor/church too physical financial human resource emotional bandwidth very important topic been there many times knew needed happen lacked emotional bandwidth transparency every pastor story


Pastor self awareness critical manifests as “can’t do” “don’t need” fear reasons avoid leading change often exhaustion lack internal mental emotional spiritual strength prevents action


**Ryan Franklin:** You say vision prediction of change tell us about that


We love preaching faith & vision what could do tackle build etc goes back opening remarks majority abstractly onboard “wow let’s do” new building amazing eager but enlisting moving forward different reality element leadership calls skill set preaching faith/vision different than leadership living trenches calls different skills challenging preachers


Casting big vision forecasts improvement better alternative means current insufficient gap between now & future = change journey = leadership preaching great things means leading significant disruptive change disruption hard culture conversation culture visible behaviors hidden values behavior manifestation culture wanting particular vision means changing manifested reality requires behavioral associated habits values resets long game creating new defaults instincts takes time hard move big visions hard because disconnect between desire outcome current behaviors not producing results leader must pull behavioral motivational levers recreate habits reshape values intentional leadership intensive activities can't just preach need deliberate effort casting big visions requires understanding commensurate level required changes matching grandiosity frustration if unmet must back up ensure morning after pizza experiences avoid understand disruption caused reason behind disrupting offering improved alternative valuable future replacing outdated elements


**Ryan Franklin:** Obviously hear disruption caused by change understood disruption must be reason something disrupted replaced better alternative


**Rodney Shaw:** Exactly not tearing down ministry arbitrarily prefer future excludes valuable past legacy part future trajectory specific reason behind disruption personal story shared about own life transition leaving beloved church moving headquarters new role vice president strategic leadership mixed emotions excitement sadness loss logistical emotional disruption listening carefully avoiding reckless disruption giving time acknowledging loss Esau Jacob reunion analogy pace flock determines travel speed must travel pace flock/family recognizing losses essential leadership managing pace respect grief importance acceptance validation affirmation key relational nutrient communicated Ephesians 4 Fivefold Ministry exists engage saints gifting benchmark success saints exercising gifts focus always servant leader adapting leadership flock tailored unique context avoiding cookie cutter approaches coaching analogy Michael Jordan team tailoring plays unique gifts followers success measured enabling gifts expression always follower centric


Communication critical generating buy-in repeated emphasis needed no shortcut major changes require one-on-one conversations build core supportive coalition identify resistors listen understand modify plans transparently anticipate answer questions before public asks critical comfortable criticism input public communication ongoing soft introduction major initiatives sow seeds positive framing celebrating staff transitions opportunity fresh ideas avoid culture uncertainty avoid frequent disruptive announcements maintain stability staff transitions celebrated positive opportunities fresh ideas release stagnation preach growth/change regular vocabulary humor examples encourage giving up seats parking spots connect personal growth discipleship emphasize continuous evolution micro/macro changes frequency balance celebrate transitions model grieving allow emotions transparent leadership ahead emotionally support team accept vulnerability maintain affections loyalties foundation transfer affections loyalties next stage acknowledge pastors often grieve longer than congregation allow processing time encourage vulnerability support teams deeply affected losses


As wrap common struggling pastors reluctant enact needed changes reflect deeply check counsel settle conviction homework research strategic plan six-month workable initial plan strong flexibility prepare launch confident adjust plan gather consensus communicate extensively exhaustion fear common barriers fear operating verge incompetence near disaster leaders edge unknown embrace faith despite fear fear not opposite faith faith enables action mentor counsel critical launch without total certainty 60-70% sure pull trigger avoid paralysis 100% sure rare gut intuition vital guide resist chronic resistance risk essential courage


Thankful opportunity discuss extensive topics enjoy visit again explore *Church Work* foundational DNA feed sheep love feeding sheep practical comprehensive chapters philosophy theology self growth wounded healer administration finances preaching teaching building weddings funerals baby dedications communion pastoral care helping transitions bonus fifty-plus sermon seeds useful resource accessible Amazon Pentecostal Publishing print digital audio links rodneyshaw.com available formats recommend highly appreciate invitation honored visit again


Thank you Pastor Rodney Shaw appreciate time honor discussing vital topics Christian leaders face thank listeners join Christian Leader Made Simple podcast until next episode God bless


Copyright © 2026 Ryan Franklin. All rights reserved.


 
 
 

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