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Urban Growth and Visionary Leadership with Australia's General Superintendent Stanley Harvey

Join us as we sit down with Stanley Harvey, General Superintendent of the United Pentecostal Church of Australia and Pastor of the Pentecostals of Sydney. Reverend Harvey shares his insights on leading a vibrant urban church in the heart of Sydney, a city bustling with challenges and opportunities. Discover how he navigates the complexities of urban growth, drives expansion without the conventional resources like ample parking, and implements his visionary leadership to foster both local and national church development. Throughout the discussion, Reverend Harvey reveals the strategies behind his effective management of dual leadership roles and how he balances the pressures of organizational and personal life. This episode is a must-listen for anyone interested in learning about innovative leadership in dynamic settings and the power of vision in overcoming obstacles to church growth.










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Transcript


I will write in the in the box next to it, how many Pom or how many 25 minutes I require to complete that task. So I may say right a blog is gonna require me 3 sets pom. So I put 3 in the box, and then I'll set a timer. And for a procrastinate like me, the timer is what sets me off. So I'll press start, and then I will start, within that 25 minutes, even if I don't have the perfect start to to an article or to a blog, article, I just had to do something for 25 minutes.


Welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. I really hope this episode helps you learn and master the skills you need to grow your leadership effectiveness. And enjoyment. Be sure to hit the subscribe button to get notified as soon as I post a new session, so you don't miss the things episode. I'd also greatly appreciate any reviews, likes and shares that you can give me.


It just helps me extend my reach to more people. Who So leaders, I know just how frustrating it can feel when you're in the weeds of work or ministry and life is chaotic. You're struggling to feel effective and you're just not enjoying leadership as much as you could be. And so to help you, After many years of leadership and executive coaching, I've developed a framework called the Christian leader blueprint, they'll guide you to find clarity, in your life and leadership. It'll help you gain a better rhythm of life.


It'll help you see yourself more clearly to leverage your strengths and you'll produce more productive relationships. It's a step by step guide to leadership transformation. And I have that in 2 formats now. I have a free short guide that you can find on ryan franklin dot org, and I have a book, the christian later blueprint. And you can find that in any format, including an audiobook wherever you buy your books.


I have a few more things on my website that you may be interested in, so just head on over, can to ryan franklin dot org and check it all out. And now, let's get to our session. Welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. Today is a unique episode today, I'm, interviewing a very special guest who lives. On the opposite side of the globe for me.


We have the opportunity to get into the world of the general superintendent of the United Church of Australia, and his name is Stanley Harvey. So brother Stanley? Welcome to the Christian leader made Podcast. Thank you, Ryan. It's an honor, especially after seeing all the incredible guests that you have had on your podcast.


I I'm honored to be here. And part of this great platform. Well, we are so honored to have you. Normally, I would introduce the... The, guest.


And... But I I think it would be better. A lot of your bio had, a little bit of your testimony in it. And I think it'd be better coming from you. We're gonna jump into the subject of of urban growth and visionary leadership from your perspective as a general superintendent and as a pastor.


But before we do that, would you mind just introducing yourself and maybe given a little of your testimony to the audience? Absolutely. Yes. Most certainly. I was born in the Philippines, actually, to Filipino parents.


So my testimony is a little bit bit different. And that I didn't grow up in church at a young age, my parents were my biological parents were separated in my mom. Married or her boss at the time, who's an Australian, of who was educated in the states, so he He's not your typical aussie and that he sounds more American than he does Australian. And so we were adopted by him because he married my mom. And so at a young age we left the Philippines at the age of 5 or 6, grew up and spent my formative years in Singapore.


Where I I grew up in an expat community, or a community of people from all around the world. And my my mom was very diligent in assuring that she took us to to Catholic Church, we were there every Sunday. But you know, I know, I was surrounded by a very secular kind of culture as far as the expat community was concerned, then move to Singapore for Tis tissue lanka rather from Singapore for about 3 years. Because of my dad's job, my dad's job took him in different places. And my my father was not, a very loving man.


He was an ex military he went to the. Bought in the vietnam war, and that really you know, had a psychological impact on him that was just very, very negative, And so we grew up in the home that was quite abusive, emotionally psychologically. And so at the age of 16 as as I was getting in more and more I I suppose adamant of determining my my sense of of autonomy. I was clashing with my father a lot more. And to the point where it was gonna be fist cups and and even grabbing weapons.


And so my mother knew that something was wrong with me sent me to Australia to live with her brother, her brother lived here in Sydney. And so the age of 16, I came over here, and I was like a bird out of a cage, I could finally experience the world, which I I lived the very sheltered life. Ver had the the best of education that that that the money could buy growing up as a child, but in... When I came to Sydney, I had no mind for that I had no desires for those things. So I went on a head long pursuit of living a very moral life of alcohol drugs and was just just lost.


That was spiraling my mind was spiraling out of control, started, I believe was a drug induced psychosis, at the point where I was just just so dark and depressed. And so I was invited to this pent a across church at the age of 19. So for 3 years of of just, you know, being partying and and being out of my mind, I finally decided to follow my friend who was going to this church out out of curiosity. I I just saw that the change in him. That really piqued my curiosity.


So I went to church that Sunday night it was at our old building It's this this same church that I'm in today that I pastor her day. But I went that night in the first time I went there. I received the gift of the Holy spirit. And I just remember this incredible joy that I experienced and I just I just said this these words in my own head. That said, this is better, than all the alcohol and drugs that I've been taking all of these years.


And and then III just knew I found it. I knew I found god or or you know, did a did a little, I realized it was to found me. And so, from then on, I just became, part of the church. It was a series of up and downs of trying to be consistent in my from 19 throughout my early twenties, and then III found the calling of God. And so eventually, you know, got involved in little things from opening the door, cleaning being on the cleaning roster, helping out in in ministries, sitting, receiving bible studies and then assisting bible studies, being in a small group.


Eventually, I started my own small group, then I became an assistant youth pastor, then became youth pastor, and then eventually, I was a assistant pastor. And in 2009, I was elected to be the senior pastor of the Pent Sydney. And so, then from there, just started getting involved, obviously, in other aspects of of the church as far as. Outside of the local assembly, know, a national work and even I became part of the Overseas missions committee, and then in 2012, I became... I got elected on the board as a home missions director, and then several years after that after about 4 years, I was elected as overseas overseas missions director, which would be.


The equivalent to the Global Emissions director there in the United States. And then in 2022, our... A general superintendent of 21, 22 years, bishop John Downs resigned, retired from that role, and I was elected as a general superintendent of the Upc of Australia. So that's where I am today. 2 kids, my daughter 6...


Is 20 years old. My son is 16, my son Joaquin, my daughter Care and then, my wife robin, obviously, working alongside me in the ministry. That's a that's a tremendous story, from drugs and alcohol to... Actually getting reached and saved in a church that you would later go to be to to be the pastor of, and then to be the general superintendent of the whole organization. That's a just a phenomenal story and a and a testimony, and I know that there's a lot more within that testimony that you could share, but thank you for for sharing that.


30 years. Condensed into 3 minutes. And Yeah. I was gonna ask you how how how long of a span was that. About 30 years.


About 30 years, and I would have never dreamed to be in these roles at all. Yeah. Well, I had the tremendous privilege to travel to Australia just a few weeks ago and and do your leaders. Leaders and ministers leadership retreat. And I wanna say you're doing a phenomenal job, You have a tremendous group of ministers in Australia.


I loved the environment that I had the opportunity to minister in. They seem to have soaked up every word that I taught, and it's obvious that you and the general board and and even bishop downs ahead of you, you guys have have done a tremendous tremendous job and sort of paving the path to to future generations and future kinda cost and future, churches even, you're you're doing a tremendous job from my from my perspective. Well, thank you, Ryan, and, of course, we just so appreciated that that you were willing to come all the way here. With your watch to Australia. It's a long it's a long journey.


But let me just say also that your ministry has had incredible impact on our ministry and leadership, for all the things that you shared and taught. It was just so deep and and so pertinent relevant to to what we face, and I think it has really equipped us not not just for for that time, but it's something that we take that's going to be a part of our. Our long term, implementing of strategies of of things that habits and and things that we certainly need in in order for us to to develop longevity in ministry, It was deep and personal, and it was something that was quite different that we've had over many years it's something that, we really take with us. So thank you. For for leaving a lasting impression and impact on our on our ministers and leaders?


Absolutely. Well, thank you. Again, It was just a great honor. I looked back. I I don't think even the magnitude of of it really hit me until I was back home and kind of reflected on on the weekend.


It was it was just a, tremendous thing, opportunity that I've had that I had, that will carry with me for the for the future. I'll definitely cherish those moments. And hope that it's not my last time Hey, man. I hope it's I hope I hope I really pray you... You, and I believe that I believe you be back here, in in the right time, and Yeah.


I'm glad I hope you got to understand what the that craziest australian rules football was all about. That was pretty... That was pretty interesting. Didn't even know that type of football existed. But if if anybody's listening to this, and it's...


Curious, go go Google Australian football, and you'll see a whole another world of football out there that, I didn't know existed. So in in Sydney, we call it ariel ping pong. Well, let's jump into our interview. Yes, sir. You're a successful pastor in general superintendent, as I mentioned.


And it seems from my perspective that just about everything you do is is thriving, at least, III realized that not everything is gonna thrive in anybody's world, but from my perspective, that's what I see. Could you tell just a little bit about the style in which you lead in that dual role? I know that that's an interesting role as a pastor senior pastor? And a general superintendent of an entire country. Just kinda of tell about the the style in which you lead if you don't mind.


Thank you, Ryan. I think what may often be seen as as success, and I think this is common for all of us as leaders. Or what maybe driving success is often built upon the back of failures or things that didn't work. Yes. And and I think we can all as leaders acknowledge that and and realize that the older adage that says, you know, Wisdom is developed from lessons learned from mistakes.


And that's been, I suppose a significant part of my leadership development. I've learned more of what not to do as opposed to what to do and so that's something that I think I had to, sort of grapple with very early on in my ministry leadership development. Is that, to use failures. I would often get very discouraged in in my early years, if if something didn't work, if I didn't do right I would get so down on myself because I was a bit of a, I suppose you could say a perfection. I was raised in a in a military home where My...


How my bed was made was inspected morning. And so there was a sense of perfection that I I suppose was reared into me, but I had to learn, that failures, of course is something that I could use to fuel me to to to know that that this was something... You know, another... Another box that I would take off as, you know, what not to do as I said earlier. Yeah.


And so have you said that, however, I think my leadership style if I had to select something, and of course, we all, like, like these personality surveys, we all have a part of of 1 particular part of personality. But I would say that my visionary would primarily be first or foremost is visionary. I would probably earn on the side of visionary, where I would, my primary responsibility would be to cast god's evasion. Yeah. And and I think, though III see myself as a visionary yet.


I also believe. I see myself a bit of a p test, and over the years, I've become fascinated with systems as, the measurable sort of means by which to to attain goals that that lead to the fulfillment vision. I've come to recognize and and I I read a book many years ago, and and, forgive me that I can't sort of, quote the the exact book, but, they they had I think it was in the early years of the Japanese car industry where, there their cars that they made were were just terrible. You know, they're the cars back in the sixties from Japan, were just poorly made. They they didn't last long And and so the the Japanese owners of the company, manufacturer car manufacturers hired a consultant to come in.


And to to see what was wrong with with with their people, and they often believed that their people were not working hard enough. They were not efficient. They were not smart And so the consultant came back to tell them that there's nothing wrong with your people. They work hard. They take pride in the word.


Is... But it's just something wrong with the system. And so, he simply, gave them some some there... Obviously, his feedback, and some strategies to improve their systems and sure enough, the the Japanese car industry began to change and develop cars that were long. And better quality, higher in quality and standards, and and it wasn't the the the people.


And so I came to to see that in the church that that oftentimes in my own mind perhaps are people that just don't have it or they're just not good enough but I realized I have to... As a leader create a culture where there is a a system in place that that would... Generate the things that God would want us to achieve, which is obviously under pin by the great commission of preaching the gospel and making disciples And so I began to to look at how we are operating as a system and and and comparing that and aligning that as alongside what what Jesus wanted us to do. And so I started to to make those changes. Got people to come in as consultants as as people that can give us some some, you know, valuations as to what we do and then give us some suggestions of how we can change.


And so I'm a I'm a visionary, but also I'm praying with. I like systems. And I was... I love that. Yeah.


That's that that is a part of leadership that a lot of people sometimes skirt around or or or miss or they... Maybe it's not their forte, so they you know, kinda put it on the back burners a little bit, but it is a critical part, and I wanna talk about vision in just a minute, but that... But systems is a critical part of implementing a vision and actually putting wheels to a vision. So I love the fact that you're able to create vision but also create the system as well. Yeah.


Absolutely. I I think you know, we've had vision, for many... And the things that frustrated me was we've had vision for many years. And and yet, nothing was other changing, you a, vision must for have legs as you said, Vision must have a stepping stones I which to fulfill that. And and I think that's part of what I have to do, can I ask you this, in regards to the systems?


Are you a system kind of a person? Is that your is that your forte? Or do you or do you just recognize that systems are needed and so you you kinda rally the troops around you that are good at systems and and create the create the systems in that matter. What side of the spectrum do you fall on there? Yeah.


I I probably wouldn't be a a strong systems guy. But as you said, it's something that I recognized, it's something that I had to sort of reconcile my own understanding that when the scripture says that the the harvest is wide, and it's ready, and the the harvest is great, but the laborers are few that I that I had to reconcile my own mind, that's what God is. Said then why aren't we not growing in the manner that we should have. And so, There's was nothing wrong with our vision. I believe it lined up perfectly with the word of God, but it it was what we were doing that that needed to be changed.


And so I've learned not... I'm not a big systems guy, but certainly recognize and learned that this is something that we really need to to explore and and to see if it would work and sure enough, it it made a big change you know, over a period of time, of course, And I would I would imagine that there's people around you that are really good at systems. And because you value it so much, it just lights them up, it empowers them to be who God has made them to be for you to to value systems as much as you do, Yeah. Certainly, I do have... You know, I had my administrator who's part of our staff by the Greg Hack, who's...


Tremendous guy. Tremendous guy, and and that he is a systems guy. He he's a a deep analytical thinker. Also have other or other... Leaders that that are are with us, other ministers in our church who are not necessarily part of staff.


They also that I suppose a a younger generation under me, are also looking to some of those things because, you know, of their secular training of their secular qualifications, that that Yeah. C systems are something very, very important. But, yeah. I... I'm very grateful that I have capable men and women that are, are you know, I guess more inclined towards those things like systems and and administration, structures, infrastructure and so on.


And I would say with the level of leadership that you were in as senior pastor, but then you also have that... The other dynamic of of general superintendent. It's very important even if you were a systems person, You still have to empower people around you to to put the wheels on the vision because otherwise, you would get bogged down and wouldn't have the time and energy to to be able to do it all. So you have to use people around you to create those systems and implement their system regardless of what side of the road you fall along with that? Yeah.


That's spot on. Ryan. And I think you... You have to get a buy in from your leaders and not and and that will filter down to the rest of of the congregation as well and to other leaders under them. But if I can get a buy in from them, it is so critical to for this to work.


And and I think once we started seeing results, they became more and more convinced and then they took it on themselves. They Yeah. Took the ball themselves and started running with it and and implementing it into their own ministries. And It feels so good. It's it's empowering to to know that your leader values, your gifts, and empowers you to to to do that.


It it just... It brings a sense of motivation and energy that can't come any other way, and I love that you pointed that out. So vision is obviously AAA vital part of leadership. And, I would guess that that even in my interaction if you wouldn't have even told me, I would guess that you are a high visionary type person. And so I wanna ask you, how do you approach?


Vision setting for the United Of Church of Australia. First of all, and and the Pinnacle of sydney, you've got 2, obviously, the vision is gonna be very similar. And, in fact, as a pastor of the pinnacle of Sydney that may help you create vision even for the United Officer Church of Australia. But in in your opinion, as What do you feel are the key components that make your vision compelling and actionable, keep keep people moving in the right direction. So How do you approach vision setting and what are the key components that make your vision compelling and actionable?


Yeah. I I think what we have... Sort of employed is is something that that's quite common and it's been used in in most organizational settings, which is called smart goals, you know, that I think I believe the goals need to be a smart, specific, measurable, achievable, realistic and timely. And I think what 1 makes goals compelling is that it's not something that is so far fetched it's so beyond attainable that that... You know, you get easily discouraged.


And so, what we have tried to do is is create achievable stepping stones, obviously, big enough or far enough for us to have to extend ourselves, but certainly not over extending that it's it's beyond our reach. Are what are you... Can I interrupt you there and just ask you how how far out are you are you looking when you think vision? Primarily I know it would vary from from 1 thing to the next, but, you know, is it 3 3 to 5 years, 10 years. What what do you like to look at when you're looking at vision?


Well as a national organization, back in 20 20, we set a 10 year goal, and Those 10 year goals, you know, we we... Realize we had to put, you know, figures and numbers and and they would be break broken I, into yearly yearly objectives, that we tried to aim for. Mh. So within the Upc, and this was, I suppose on under our previous general superintendent for the for the bishop John Downs, and and myself being a part of that executive board. We said 3 main goals, that we wanted to achieve for the organization.


First of all, is our leadership goals, and that simply looked at having more licensed ministers. That's, the very most basic statement about that particular goal, we renew. But if we are going to grow as an organization and as local churches, we must have leaders. And so each year, we have set particular numbers and it's based on a a graph, of a mathematical equation that we wanted to aim for by 20 30 from 20 20 to 20 30, and then that has in below that, of course, is the stepping stones or the strategies by which to obtain or to, accomplish that particular goal. Then we also have a church goal, we wanna have certain.


Number or constituency of our membership throughout the the Upc of Australia. And again, that's broken up into yearly segments. And then the third 1, the third goal is our, supposed... Not as quantifiable by numbers, it is about our apostolic or pent culture. That is part of our goal that we want to rein to make sure that we retain our apostolic identity, that we have the the gifts and the spirit of the supernatural, if you will as part of of our culture because, we had to be careful that we don't become so, I suppose corporate in our approach for the...


A lack of a better term that we don't lose what what we're all about as an apostolic movement as a church. And so those 10 year goals are, categorized under those 3 sections. Leadership, church growth or church constituency and a church culture are And I love the way that you're hanging on to all 3 at 1 time, and it's not either or it's it's all 3 at 1 time. You gotta have all 3. Gotta have leadership.


You gotta have growth in numbers. And you have to have the the thing that we're here to do is, you know, the the spiritual side of things, that is that is super necessary. But you can't have... It it's it's sort of like acts chapter 2. The church was born But in acts chapter 6, they started establishing structure an organization.


And the church grew in the book of acts. Because they began establishing leadership and, you know, likely, I could I could just imagine them create goals to to reach, you know, it's putting putting those objectives ahead of people. So I'm hearing vision, long term vision, but I'm also hearing more practical, steps along the way in in setting those yearly goals as as part of hitting that vision. So What are some key components that would sort of make that vision compelling and actionable to the ministers? Of Australia, and then also to just local local church body at at your local church.


Yeah. I think as I said making, these goals, setting goals that that are gonna be achievable. And as you have particular segments, that you're achieving at each step of the way. And I, you know, we've always felt that that would be something that that would, you know, stir and create motivation for people I think also having, you know, speed people coming in and and is sharing some of their experiences as well as to how they achieve those goals. Obviously, you know, there they are just numbers and But I think you need to put some figure.


You need to have something to aim for because it it can be so a suppose generic, you know, just say, okay, we need to reach the world or we need to make disciples. But but what does that look like for them individually. How how they... If they win 1 soul, you know, over 5 years, they they might... Some people might see that as having 1 people or if they see that there's still so many un underage souls in the world.


That might create a sense of guards in that will never be able to reach them. Mh. And so, I think having timely figures and numbers, And I'm always always very careful to to remind people. Listen, It's it's they're just particular numbers that we're aiming for. A greater...


Scheme, which, you know, may seem so idealistic is to reach everybody. But but we wanna put some numbers here that we want to teach so many Bible studies a week. Just to give something to Aim for any we don't hit that, It doesn't mean that we failed, but it just means that, we look at, well, we didn't hit 20 valve studies a week. We hit 10, hey, that's, you know, 10 bible studies a we can celebrate. We can enjoy, but I think people and and I guess that's the way I sort of process it, and I think is that we we need figures when you need a target.


To Aim at. And the old saying is that if you... Aim at nothing, you'll hit it every time. And so I think breaking it down to to achievable numbers and figures, it is so so very helpful. If we...


For example, Yeah. The other year, you know, we had so many back, we had average... We always average about 80 to a hundred baptism. And so I said, well, this following year, this was several years ago, let's aim for a hundred and 50 baptism. And for our local church, that was like, oh okay.


Well, that that's wonderful. Well, we didn't quite get there. But we... It changed our our our normal sort of averages of 80 to a hundred 2 reaching a hundred and 40. So close it was very close.


And so that in itself may... It made a big difference, But I also had to be careful that they were not. Sort of pushing people in the water, if you know to try and get those numbers, it doesn't matter if you have repent it, just get in the water. So we still had to strike that balance. Of of have...


Aiming for for figure aiming for target, but there's also some some considerations. That's good. And And I... I'm hearing you say that your your vision is what is compelling people to kinda kinda create new ways of of reaching people, not only just motivation but likely innovative ways of of reaching people, you know, maybe even using technology and and different things of that nature to to do different things to to reach people and that's a... Any way we can do...


Any any anyway we can use vision to compel and get people actionable is a wonderful thing. So you're facing some dynamics in Sydney, it's a it's an urban church. It's a metro area, lots of people you you've got some financial constraints with the... I I would assume likely with the land around you and stuff, land is not easy to get. But despite logistical challenges that you have, I'm assuming limited parking?


Yes. Would would would I would I be right? We have not talked about that, but I would assume limited parking. So what strategies have you have you implemented not just specifically with parking, but just logistical challenges in general with growing the church in that area. What strategies have you implemented to overcome these types of obstacles in that urban environment and to continue attracting and retaining new people in your church.


Yes. Well, Ryan. I don't know if you were operating in the word of knowledge there, but but we parking... Certainly got have biggest concern an issue a and in Sydney, Sydney, we are we are pretty much very metro area where our church is located. You know And, you know, whenever we have guests from the United States, visiting Sydney, they're always, shocked.


At the cost of our parking in in the city when we're we're driving to the city, of course, it's it's a very very expensive. And so real estate is is at a premium here, and Sydney is, 1 of the most... Probably the most expensive city in Australia, and in fact, ranks pretty high around the world as as a un unbelievable city because of the expense and the cost of of property. I didn't realize that. I knew it was I knew it was quite high.


I heard that from several people, but I didn't realize it was... Rank through around the world as 1 of the highest. And so we're we're in a highly, populated area, a high urban area. But our church is located in an industrial zone, and so there's factories and warehouses and so parking is, very, very limited for us, and it's a constant struggle. The the 1II suppose aspect that's a positive for us is that on Sundays, it is, the streets are empty because, you know, people are not working from the a lot of the factories commercial properties are closed.


However, it is still way too short of what we need. And so what we did back in 20 18, we have... Our church capacity can only sit... We can only see 500, that the the council will allow us. We can probably fit more, but council, will not allow us to have any more than 500, and that's already giving us concessions because we don't have enough parking per, person capacity.


And so what we decided to do is as we've her hybrid read in many church growth statistics and research, it shows that if the room is 75 percent full than it is already considered full. And so we were Jam packed. And I wonder if... I wonder if in post Covid, if if it's more like 6 that would be that would be full. I think that that certainly be be.


Relevant post Covid, everything kinda changed. But just prior to Covid from 20 18, we said, we'll we'll we'll need to... We needed a bigger building, but we just couldn't afford it. It was just, we needed at least 10000000 dollars just to buy the property without building in order for us to have something bigger. And so we decided that we would just increase the capacity by doubling our service.


So we I know a lot of churches even in the United States are doing this. We have... We created a multiple service on Sunday mornings. So we essentially went from a 500 cedar, a sanctuary to a thousand seat of sanctuary. And that also meant that our parking would increase because we would have 1 group to make more space for for the next group.


And so we we took a step by faith. Didn't know how that was gonna go. And we had a Sunday night services, which was really... To be honest with you was dwindling. We...


People weren't coming. It was just a faithful fuse. And any new people would only come Sunday morning. They would never come... Sunday evening in that.


I suppose that's part of the the demographic culture here in Sydney that we just couldn't get them there on Sunday nights, And so we decided as we go to multiple service, but we would remove our Sunday night, and and really, you, that was for some people that was a big decision, but, it didn't take us very long to realize that that was the best decision because after 2 back to back services in Sunday morning we're we're just exhausted. Yeah. There's no way. Yeah. No.


And within within weeks, Ryan, we immediately saw people coming in people getting saved and and it just... It was incredible. It did not take us very long to see that this was 1 of the best decisions that we've made. In a very long time. And so, having done that, we created more space, and we created more parking, and and so that's been a really, quote quite AAA positive for us, and this really helped us.


Mh. Tremendous tremendous. And, of course, Well, let's... Sorry. I I was just gonna...


Go ahead. 1 of the other things I was gonna say is also, of course, we have... We don't have my mid week services anymore, because, Sydney so busy. It is and people live quite far apart. We've decided that we were gonna do connect group small groups, in different locations in people's homes during the week and during our our school breaks, our school holidays, then we would have mid week, and invite people to come, and that's when I would do more pastor teaching as well.


But but still then, they they wouldn't be coming because it's just so far or, they get home late because they get caught in traffic. And and so that's as you said, social media or the Internet, a live streaming, and and those kind of technologies have been very, very helpful. For us to be able to still get connected, you know, as, you know, additional parts of our ministry Just curious, do you have any small groups as well that are that are meeting on Zoom rather than meeting in homes? Do you... We do have that option.


Particularly for some of our our our busier sort of groups, they they would prefer to be online and that's worked very well, and we encourage them to make sure that they supplement that with gathering together as well for the fellowship, face to face. And they do that on occasion. Yeah. And and that's worked quite well for us. I I think it's...


Zoom is, the way I see it is, it, you know, I've rather be in person. That's like eating a steak, but Zoom is, like eating a hamburger. It's still. It's still... You could still connect with people and talk with people just like we're doing right here on online, obviously, it would be better face to face, but but sometimes, that's not possible.


And I think it's a good a good secondary option, and you have the gathering on each Sunday as well where people see each other face to face. But, I love the thought of, even occasionally when they... You know, maybe maybe when time permits, occasionally scheduling a face to face with those Zoom group meetings as well, just to kinda, get in 1 another's world a little bit closer. And that's that's a great analogy, Ryan. That that is.


Still feeding them is still getting them connected. But what what's really what we're saying, of course, after Covid, the new people, and the new ones that come to church getting saved and and want to do Bible studies. They are more more of them are opting to have Bible studies on Zoom. And, you know, so that they don't have to travel out or they don't have to necessarily have the house, spot less clean to have somebody come in and teach Bible studies, And and in within and Yeah obviously, in the metropolitan area, that is something that is so so common and well accepted now. So...


Absolutely. That's 1 thing that Covid did in a positive way for us is it escalated the the opportunities to be online and be able to be able to. I I guess accept the fact that it is okay, to meet online occasionally in a Zoom room and and have a bible study or have a small group do a teaching that is a acceptable thing and it's still nourishing and a and a and a good thing. There exactly. So getting in your your personal world just a little bit if you don't mind managing the responsibilities of of, you you got a ton of them.


I'm sure as pastor and as general superintendent. I'm sure you're flooded with the responsibilities. You also have a family, and you to you, I'm sure that that takes some pretty good organizational skills. How do you balance the demands of those 2 roles effectively? Yeah.


It it's certainly been a challenge, and thankfully. What has helped me, of course in both cases both in the local church and as a national organization, I I get to work with an incredible group of people and an executive board, the board members that are just just wonderful man that I worked alongside with. And so, as law... As well as our our staff in in the church and leadership, our volunteer ministers, our volunteer leaders, it's what's really helped me, of course is being able to have a team to work together with that I can delegate And and, of course, delegation is something that is is an ongoing skill that I've had to try and and become better and better at. Wasn't great at it.


I I prefer to do things on my own, being, again, that sort of perfection mentality. I thought I might as well just do it. Yet, I'm seeing having been in this role for a couple of years. I have no choice but to to delegate. And, of course, it empowers.


What's your key... What well, it empowers people with... What's your key to effective the delegation? What do you feel like helps you in that role? The most be a perfection and wanting to do it yourself, but you're able to do it.


Is there anything particular that you would that you would pin in as the key to your effective. I think I I would often ask when when I look at my tasks, and and I would ask. Just I ask myself the question. Can somebody else do this? Do I...


Does it really need my my fingerprints on this? Just or is it just something that that, you know, somebody else could do it. So I have to ask those questions. Obviously, there. And maybe even take it, maybe even taking it a step forward and saying, can they get Exactly gained and often...


It may be something that that I believe in the long term and ask the question Can they... Is this something that I will have to keep doing or is this something that somebody else could do? And then, I think a key to it is that, you know, you you empower them by teaching them or training somebody what needs to be done. It they may not do it exactly the way I do it, but, you know, certainly, the the quality could be there provided that I'm responsible, for ensuring that I'm not dumping, but I am actually empowering them by by teaching them is showing me how it it can be done. If it's something that obviously that they can use their own sort of flare and their own sort of personality in, in executing that particular task.


I would I would welcome that. But I just... I try... I think avoiding dumping it is is important. But but you you give them some lanes to make their own decisions and what they're...


How they're gonna accomplish a task or... Or lead to ministry or whatever? So regarding delegation, what do you feel is effective communication, how does that look like or when you're effectively communicating with a person you've feel. I think you know, I have to write it down. I think, first of all, you you can explain it to them.


You can share it with them verbally, but they also need to have it in writing so that they can always refer back to it. And so it also helps me to process, the information that I am, sharing with them that I'm having to convey that I have it written down. If... If it can be written down in in a way that's understandable, then they're not gonna understand it either, I suppose if I'm communicating just verbally. So I think you need to have that both Yeah.


Written, and I'll have to say there's no paper trail, If it's not in writing, then it didn't happen. Then we didn't have this conversation, Especially in my role, I have numerous people in the church saying, 0III said this, I was gonna go here and I told you this, that or the other, And I said, well, it's not in writing. I I can't go back to that. And so I... That's what I try to encourage all of our leaders.


That even if it's something simple, give it to me either in a text message or in an email, preferably an email why it's easily accessible, and so I I have to take that same approach when I'm del. When I want somebody to do something. Yeah. I will talk to them, but I also have it in email, and sometimes the email comes first, and then I'll have that conversation with them so that you know, it's it's clearly communicated, and they understand. So so you're you're not just just verbally communicating.


You're not just emailing you're you're sort of given a combination because you need the relational side of it, but you also need the paper trail side of it to make sure that lines are clear and things are or or communication. I think that's perfect. Ryan. I think you know, because we are in a church and we work mainly with our volunteers. The relational side of it is is vital.


That we we don't wanna just be a corporation or machinery, I think we even even in sharing and del responsibilities, there's still that element of of that relationship. And and when there's that relationship, people will will will do anything for you. You know, they're... We are willing to help 1 another and go to the furthest extent because we love this person. And and we're not doing it just for a job because it's not a job but they're not getting paid for the most part.


And so the relational side is so important, not because we wanna get things done, but because it it's... It refreshes our souls. It empowers us. That we can, have this brotherhood and that fellowship. And at the same time, worked together in accomplishing the work of God.


So, yeah. Spun on. I think also, I was just gonna add as well, a part of, balancing roles of of course, is is I've had to be more intentional with my scheduling, intentional with with my time, and, what... What's been very helpful for me is I use what's called this... The productivity planner.


By intelligent change. It's actually an American company, and I, I don't know if you've heard of it, but, it it uses productivity planner. It's a little bit like a like a diary, but you start off your week yeah with your 5 main, sort of big goals that or tasks that you want to, accomplished that you know, you believe will be critical, in what you do and then, and then the next 5, additional tasks and then the next 5. And then you have your daily tasks And so you put numb... Your task number 1 is out of the first the top 5 that you wanna accomplish.


And it's what's called the Pom system. Pom, I don't know if you've heard of that. The Pom system is... A Pom is a is a is a tomato in in in Italian. And the pom is simply 25 minute segments before having a 5 minute break.


And so because I'm perfection is often a, and that's been my weakness is procrastination. And I'm gonna found this system it's it's helped me because, the Pom system is, for example, if my first task, is to write a blog, for example, I will write in the in the box next to it, how many Pom do are So before we continue on with the podcast, this episode is brought to you by Christian leader community coaching. Are you a Christian leader experiencing low productivity? Chaotic lifestyle, and maybe you're overwhelmed and just unsure of what it's gonna take to create growth in your life. And so I wanna introduce to you our Christian leader community coaching program through our step by step frameworks You're gonna discover a better rhythm of life.


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I require to complete that task. So I may say to write a blog is gonna require me 3 sets on. So I put 3 in the box. And then I'll set a timer. And for a like me, the timer is what sets me off.


So I'll just press start, and then I will start within that 25 minutes even if I don't have the perfect start to to an article or to a blog article, I just have to do something for 25 minutes, whether it the start of the beginning of a sermon, for example, is not ideal. I just start writing the sermon. I just start writing the article. And then after 25 minutes, my alarm will go off, and then I'll take a 5 minute break. I I literally stand up from my desk.


I'll walk, get a glass of water, whatever stretch, and then it kinda resets your mind again, And then, I've got 2 more pom doors to it. And then starts again. And then you circle the the 3 Pom that you... Each 1 that you complete. And so for me, that has been a god for to make me sure that I...


Accomplish, the main tasks that I have for my scheduling as a superintendent, but also as a pastor that is still my 1 of my my primary responsibility. I really like that. That's that's a I'm a have to try that 1. Absolutely. I love that.


I love that thought of doing that. You mentioned you mentioned procrastination. As a perfection. A lot of times that will kind of move over into our decision making as leaders as well and people that will struggle with perfectionism and procrastination will also struggle with a little bit of worry. When they're having to just make big decisions, decisions that will impact a lot of people when there's a lot writing on a decision, or somebody could make a decision even too has, And so what's your process for you for decision making, making strategic and timely?


Decisions, especially when when they impact your local church and the national organization what's your strategy for that? Well, of course, this this pre poses the the prayer and fasting and and you know, meditating God's word is already he been done. For procrastinate data like me something that that was profound for me And this may sound overly simplistic to some folks but what was profound to me from what was shared to me by my previous my my late pastor, Bishop Ted Slack, bishop Slack was 1 of the pine and my pioneers, I suppose of the church in Australia, he was my pastor. And he said to me, I then, you won't always make the right decision, but you've gotta make a decision. And so I I think every major decision, every significant decision that's going to have a profound impact on our churches and our organization.


Every you you must have a time. You must have a cutoff time to to to a deadline that you have to make that decision. And so. I think that's critical. Because you can you can be mu over an issue forever in a day.


But you have to make that decision. And so Mh it it's still there is a lot of con with with which way to go, come deadline, that that old stay saying for my bishop is it might not be the right decision, but you have to make a decision because not making a decision is making a a decision. But not deciding. Yeah. You you've already made a decision.


And so that's to me the first step of of, of decision making but go ahead. But making a deadline is is... Is huge. And I guess, depending on what is what you're having to make the decision on would depend on the the debt, the amount of time you give yourself. If it's a smaller day to day decision, could give yourself a 15 minute deadline, or, you know, I'm gonna them all over this for the morning, and then right after lunch, I've gotta make the decision on this.


That kinda how you talk for? I I think yourself... Exactly how I talk through it. For an example... For example, you know, 1 of the struggles that we have as pastors, obviously, is...


Is a sermon for for Sunday, and yeah. But for the longest time, I would struggle us you know what to preach and I would get all the way to Saturday night and still not know what to preach. And so I've had to create a deadline to say by by the latest Wednesday or Tuesday, I have to have what my message will be, So I begin to to meditate and work on on that. Of course, we're... I've also incorporated things such as Sermon series that have been very helpful for me and I know well in advance what I'm gonna be diminishing on.


And I found it hasn't, you know, diminished in any way, hasn't affected way for the sense of an or, I suppose the the conviction of the comp of what God has wanted to say, So that's been critical. But I can tell you what it... I can tell you what it has done. It's helped your team who's waiting to build a serving graphic or... Something like that.


It's it's that's that's the people that it that impacts in a negative way whenever we do delighted device true. That is so true. And they... The the team our our media team is is someone... They're always very thankful when I give to them.


In advance what we're gonna be on because it gives them time. Absolutely. And and some of them Are Are not. A lot of them in you know, at very time they need to have it that's spot on, which you know, is something that has helped them when when I've been able to do that, definitely. I I think also, part of decision making is is having...


And again, I refer back to my bishop who said this. This was a saying that would stick to my mind. He says I use all the mind that I have and all the mind that I can borrow. And and so, this gives the idea of just just ensuring that we're thinking through everything that that God has given to us our own mental faculties, our own sense of experience and the wisdom that we've been able to accumulate to help us with with our decisions. And so I I had the team, I anything major, obviously, I have our team of ministers that that, you know, relates to.


Ministry things, our church board that that relates to, you know, the fiscal aspects of of of decision making, And then I also have you know, a more intimate group just like I suppose the 3 that Jesus had, have system pastors and others that I will consult with to get their thoughts and their feedback and to to ensure that it's a decision that I sense that the other others are also seeing a perspective that they can share with me. That's so good. Getting getting the body end of the team around you. That's so it so vital to the success. It's so vital to putting the wheels to the vision.


Yeah. That's. I'll go through a list of questions. You know, such as these, you know, does this decision contra our rules, is this decision, is it in line with our goals and our mission, are we creating any pre events, as a result of a particular decision that we make either either direction. What is the risk and reward ratio for this decision is a kingdom directed.


Can it be trial and measured. Can it be just a a temporary, a trial and so those kind of questions, I utilize to to making sure that I'm making the best decision possible. Yeah. So, obviously, a lot of pressure and I could just imagine the pressure that comes with the job that you have as as a general superintendent. And as senior pastor.


It's just a... There's there's an enormous pass... There's enormous amount of pressure that comes with that stress. Can you share a little bit about about the pressure that you feel, and share how you manage the pressures of of that day to day personal and the inter the time the inner inter entertaining of your personal life and the organizational life and how that impacts you and how you deal with that in a in a day basis. My my life was a lot easier up until I got elected a super superintendent.


It's a whole another Kettle of fish, you know, having pastor for for many years, you know, you you'd get into. A very good rhythm of knowing how to handle pressure. But then when when when you become superintendent, there's a a whole another level of, of responsibility and and people you deal with, You know, I'm not just dealing with our local church, we are having to to work together with pastors and for the most part, the our our leadership, our pastors are are phenomenal. But, you know, of course, again, pre supposing, the devotion, my devotion life, Obviously cp, key to to being able to handle pressure. I'm reminded of Mh.


Of the the scripture that, you know, we're not given too much information about the time from from Jesus of birth to when he started his ministry, Those were the a silent years Suppose as far as scriptures concerned. But there is 1 passage where it says in the word of God that Jesus grew in in wisdom and in stature and in favor with God and man. And and those 4 components speaks to, of course, a balance, a balance of our our spiritual, favor with God. And men, a social or emotional, and then there is good wisdom and his stature, so the intellectual and your physical health. And and for me to be able to handle stress, I think all 4 aspects needs to be in tandem in balance, working together, ensuring that that I am.


Paying attention and and developing those 4 components in my life, and that helps me to handle pressure, the the physical sort of help. If I'm and not looking after my myself physically, then then, you know, it would probably exacerbate that that sense of pressure. And so balance for me has been the key to to being handled, handle the pressure that I'm not just working you know, as it were on a treadmill and constantly, but I'm I'm taking time away. So creating that rhythm of your weekly schedule, where where I have AAA sabbath once a week constantly but also take takes sa radical time off during the year where I'm spending time with family and resting and and not getting involved with those things, and and and literally, that's been a struggle for me where I pulled myself away from the thinking of just mu over the the issues that we're having to deal with so that I can rest and deal with it. And I think creating that healthy rhythm, rhythm and balance is so critical for me to be able to handle the pressure.


Mh. And and also, margin. So rhythm, balance and margin, creating enough space. That's what I was... That's what I was here and as you were talking, you're you're intentionally creating margin in your week may not be every single day, but you're creating margin in your week so that your mind can rest and you can have time for the the relationships that matter the most to you.


And and then you're also carving out specific weeks of the year that you can have extended amounts of margin to III completely relate to the struggle of when you're in that time of margin of disconnecting. That's a difficult thing. Whole another conversation at some point, maybe that that, of how to do that, but but, yeah. I I love that. We are closing in on time and and also wanna be respectful of your time.


But I... So a lot of questions I'd love to ask you, but I know we've got wrap up. Just looking ahead, what are some of the long term goals that you have for both Upc a and for the Pinnacle of Sydney. What do you what are you looking gonna head and and when I share this, of course, this is... Again, I'm mindful that this may sound a little idealistic, But by the time I retire as a pastor and as a superintendent or well, it's you know, super tendencies is obviously an elected position, but I would love to see 1 percent, 1 percent of the population of Australia as the constituency of the United Charge of Australia.


And that that would be 260000 members. We have 26000000 people, obviously, in in this country to And so what I would love to see is that we aim for and that we get in, and there may be 20 years from now to where we have... Well, the population would increase obviously significantly by then. But to aim for 1 percent of the population of this nation, I think that is something that I would love to see and something that we are intentionally aiming for and believing God for, and to see that as part of, our national amy and and objectives is 1 percent of the population, which is at this stage 260000. Which again, compared to say, like the, the United States is really small, but 1 percent doesn't seem very, very much.


But compared to our numbers now that is quite a significant increase Yeah. And that takes growing leaders, growing ministers, growing local leaders of a church, not just pastors, but it it requires more people to do the labor, to move to cities that are uninhabited by churches, and it it requires great vision. Yeah. And I think for our local church, it would be that we... In the the Pinnacle Sydney continue to be a training and distribution center of missionaries for cy makers, church planter.


Yep. And and obviously, that means increasing our capacity as well, in, including the building itself, but that we would continue to develop that and and be sending men and women out to to build more churches and and to to reach more places. Tremendous. Well, I have 1 1 last question. I wanna ask you, but before I do that, just wanna check With anything else that maybe we missed Like sharing unique in our, church the Pos and also, this is quite common.


Around the churches in Australia. Protocols cost of Sydney, we have a very multicultural congregation. And, of course, that's reflective of our... Particular demographics in our community. When we counted our last all nation's service last October, we had 54 different national, in our churches.


Yeah. And and it's quite. You're you're reaching you we're on sydney our. And so for us that that's been a challenge because of all the different cultures and mindset sets that have been, you know, that we had to sort of, minister to and also cater for in a sense, you know, the the 3 different types of world views that we talk about, you know, the the shame honor culture, the guilt instance culture, and the the fear and power culture that that we are been been sort of very mindful of and and assuring that we are in that way. But, yeah, we have the world as it were in in our church, and and that breast puts us in a place where we are ready to to create build up more missionaries and and people to go out there, reach their communities, and even sending missionaries back to their homeland, which is what we are...


We're gonna be doing this year. We have a family that is from an island, but Ryan that's in the Pacific that doesn't have an apostolic presence. It's a tiny island that is so small that they don't have room enough Eb to build an airs strip, And so in order for them to get there, they have to fly to the nation of Samoa, the the the nation's is called top, and they will have to catch a 2 day, a ferry or boat ride from Samoa to their island nation. And so, there... We have licensed Again.


It's administered this year. We have 4 those families and our churches from that particular ethnic or nation, and that family will be heading back sometime this year to to start a new work. Families in an un nation. So, that... That's what we wanna see.


That is just tremendous. That is tremendous. Well, I have learned through this interview that you are a very disciplined person. That's right... I'm just curious.


This is my last question for you? My last question. Can you tell me can you tell us about a habit that makes a big difference in your daily or weekly routines besides devotion, What is a habit that that that really makes a big difference in your daily weekly? Let me just say that, of course, habits are so powerful. God created us.


With the capacity to do things habit individually. And and science shows that when you do something out of habit, it uses a part of the brain that they uses very little energy. You don't have... You know, when you do something habit eventually, you don't even realize it. You're not even thinking about it.


And that's the genius of God's creation. For us to be able to do that. And I think Charles Doo in his book the power of habit. He details that, which is why he says that oftentimes when a person commits adultery or watches pornography, for example, a some bad habit it they do it during the evening at nighttime because their will power by then is diminished. Power is like a muscle.


It's a limited resource. And so after so many reps, you, you know, lifting a weight, you can only do so much you won't be able to do it anymore. There's a a point of failure. And so, when power is diminished. That's it.


And you you your resistance is gone, your power is gone. Then you'll have to rely on habit. That's why habits is so powerful is so important. You don't need much willpower per habit, You don't need to use much brain power, you don't use the frontal over the brain, which is the part of the brain that processes new information, but it uses a very little energy in the in the in the middle part of brain. And I can't remember what's it's called.


And so for me, what's been very helpful in dealing with this with pressures of ministry with with dealing with with a lot of the responsibilities that I have is is exercise. And and it's... I guess it's not a small habit For me. It's a big habit. I try to do it every day where I either go to the gym or play tennis once a twice a week.


That relieve me of the pressure it's enjoyable, and of course, it releases endo, the hormones that they call the happy hormones that that, you know, restores your sense of joy, and and that's been for me so very helpful. It makes a difference. And and I'm ready to to attack what's there for that day of that week. And and I feel great it was physically strong and healthy, you you feel fantastic and and you're you're you're ready to to take on what whatever challenges you have for the day. Yeah.


And I told you, I asked you that question and I preface it with besides devotion. But I would assume, and I'll just throw in devotion here because I know it's a vital part of your life that that's what keeps you centered. Your devotion and your exercise. If you can have your devotion and exercise on a daily basis, that's what keeps you. It...


You can swing out, you can get out of rhythm, you can have a rough day. But if you can get back to that devotion and exercise. That's what you in or is that 1 guarantee? My prayer life and and, you know, meditating of god's word, it's it's the foundation. But it's second to that, obviously, is is your physicality, your your strength, your health.


And I I'd neglected, know, for early years of my ministry, we kinda felt that that sport or exercise was just not of God. We didn't have time for it. And and I realized later on how little I had of, physical joy and enjoyment, you know, from from from, exercise. And also for our longevity, but we wanna be around for as long as possible, we don't wanna... I don't wanna spend the last 20 years of my life just in and out of hospital and obviously, some of those things are beyond our control, but some of those things are lifestyle and induced, and so we wanna make...


Sure that our health is at at, you know, at peak optimum level as as best we can. Well, I could keep going all night, but we are out of time actually day for you night for me. We're out of time here and for the harvey, this has been a phenomenal conversation. I've enjoyed the interview, but I know people are gonna. Really enjoy hearing the wisdom that you have given us today.


Thank you so much. I know your time is extremely valuable. You just got back up, from an international trip. Yes. Just yesterday, and and here you are inter...


Allowing me to interview you. Thank you so much for giving us your your time and allowed us see sort of the inside of a general superintendent life Right. Thank you for the opportunity. I'm so honored and so blessed that to keep up the great work, and I look forward to to continuing to to watch and follow your podcast. It's been so helpful thus far.


You know, I... I'm so grateful that I could get onto to that. But thank you. I appreciate it. Thank you.


So if people wanna connect with you... Some way. Are you are you okay with them connecting with you on social media? Or... Yes.


Yes. I'm sticking with you. Obviously, Facebook and Instagram. My Instagram is Stanley Harvey, Pos, all 1 word or Stan Harvey Pos. And it's Stanley Harvey on, Facebook, and if people wanna contact me and email me, stan dot rb at upc a dot org dot au u.


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