In this exciting episode, Ryan sits down with Dr. John Townsend, renowned psychologist, leadership expert, and New York Times best-selling author. Dr. Townsend shares pivotal moments from his journey and dives deep into the biblical principles of relationships and leadership. They discuss the concept of relational nutrients, how leaders can assess whether their connections are fueling or draining them, and why it's essential for pastors and leaders to receive support as well as give. Packed with practical steps for building life-giving relationships, this episode is a must-listen for Christian leaders seeking to enhance their leadership health and effectiveness.
Relevant Links for Dr. John Townsend:
TPRAT Assessment: https://tprat.com
People Fuel book: https://amzn.to/3A7mLxc
Relational Nutrients: https://drtownsend.com/relational-nutrients/
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Transcript
Welcome to the Christian leader made simple podcast. I'm your host, Ryan Franklin. And today, we have a special guest that I have long to interview for a very long time. It's only my fault that we haven't done this sooner. But today we have with us the 1 and only, doctor John Townsend, and many of you know him from his books, but just in case there's some of you that don't...
Let me share a little bit of his bow. Doctor Townsend is a well known psychologist, leadership consultant and New York Times best selling author who has greatly influenced how I personally think about relationships and leadership through many of his books and and teachings. He's written over 30 books, and he sold... Listen to this. He sold over 10000000 copies.
But he's most widely known for his amazing series called boundaries. Is the founder operator of Townsend Institute for leadership and con and counseling, which offers graduate programs and counseling, executive coaching and consulting and leadership. And as a psychologist and a leadership consultant, John has spent decades, coaching leaders and business owners and pastors on how to grow in both their personal and professional lives. And I have to admit, I'm a little bit star struck today. This is a man that I have greatly admired from a distance most of my life, and he has drastically improved my relational life through his books and teachings over the years.
So if I fumble with my words a little bit today, you're just gonna have to give me a little bit of grace. I'm so honored to have him on the show today to discuss a book that he wrote just a few years ago, but is drastically changing lives. Actually just did a small group just finished it up this past Sunday. And the book is called people fuel, which helps us dive into the power of relationships and leadership. So doctor Townsend, welcome to the show.
Hi, Glad to be here. You know, 1 of my bucket list items was sitting down with doctor John Townsend and and drinking a cup of coffee, so I brought my coffee with me and talking about relational nutrients. This is such an honor. Thank you. It's really fun to be here already.
You know, I I had the privilege of attending your school Townsend and Institute, and I'd love to just kinda jump into that right off the bat, and and you share with the audience. I've had many people that have been interested in it. I think I've had 10 people, right at 10 people who have actually attended townsend and institute from my network of of people that listen to the podcast and and in my coaching services. But, it is a phenomenal school. I loved it.
It changed my life. Can you just share what what what that is, what Townsend and Institute actually is Sure. Thanks. We have a fully accredited graduate program in 3 programs. The first 1 is executive coaching consulting.
The second 1 is in counseling, and the third 1 is an organization leadership. And there's different levels of achievement a person can have. Somebody... Some people might just say, I'd it's you like a credential, and that's fine. You can get a master's at any of those 3.
And now, we have a Phd in counseling and as a matter of fact, I don't know if... I told you this Ryan, But recently, Forbes magazine made, our Phd and counseling, the number 1 online Phd, counseling a good degree. Wow, ever. And that wasn't among the christian. I believe just just Forbes in general.
And so, what we do is we we have a methodology. We're basically online with 1 or 2 little trips to the beautiful campus of Concord University, Irvine, California where we are. And but basically, we've got all of the accreditation needed for person have a great career and a valid degree. And we teach kinda like the the skill part of, like, leadership in coaching and counseling, but also the people part like that. How do you relate differently?
Because sooner or later is gonna be coming down to you as a person or not a person, no matter what your skills are, and people are getting great jobs and great opportunities. Like yourself, you're, A graduate. They're very point. We're I'm very impressed with, and we wanna stay connected to you forever. Well, thank you so much.
And I don't wanna stay connected to you guys forever. In fact, I'm waiting on you guys to do a doctorate and leadership of some sort. It's on the boards, it's on the boards. I I can't wait. I've I've been staying in touch with Doctor Gilbert to, just wait on that to happen.
So we're we're covering people feel today, which I have to say is... Is not my favorite book of all time. It's my second favorite book. My favorite book is is this 1 right here. I love.
Hiding from Love phenomenal book. It's only available on paper back. I'd love for you to do an audible version of that, at some point, or at least a Kindle, but it's it is 1 of my... It it is it is my top book. I've I've worn this thing out.
I've probably read it 7 or 8 times over the last 4 or 5 years, and it has changed my life. That it was helpful, Ryan. It it really was. And, but the book that we're talking about today is is, of course, people fuel. Which is probably a little more practical for the average person, Mh it it it works with anyone actually and everyone needs to read it.
And so to kick us off with with people fuel, you've got a lot of scripture in here and it's very much biblical based. What does the bible say about relationships and leadership, and and how do you integrate the teachings of the bible into the principles that that we read in in people feel. Well, yes. It's it's it's kind of what the content of the book is about. Like you said, it I wanna something to be practical about relationships because healthy people, they increase their gain relationships and they sort of like decrease their their drain.
Ships. I wanted to show how to how to do that. So we've got the practical part. We've also got the science part. On there's a lot of neuroscience they're the science of the brain and how we're resilient, how we make challenges and how we achieve goals, but Also wanted to have a lot of the bible in it because Basically, the...
It all started with the bible. Every good neuro psych and and clinical and coaching research piece that I've ever read that was well done, you can find a passage on it in the bible, Bible started at all. And so, I... It says 1 of those cases where it science bends its need to the bible. And so I'm I'm...
I love science, but I also say that it came from the scriptures. And when we say what does the just say about relationships, it it says a lot of things that but some of the most important things. I think yeah that, we have what I would call the vertical relationship with God, best God and the bible and the holy spirit and in Jesus and prayer, And that's where we get so much grace and truth and help and support to lead well to run our family's well, well, to be healthy people, that vertical dimensions is important. But what a lot of people miss Ryan is that there's... The bible also teach us a horizontal view.
Of where we get the support we need, the wisdom we need, the care we need the love we need. And that horizontal part is people. For example, if you go back to Genesis 2, it says it's not good that we be alone, and that was god speaking to Adam And a lot of people say, yeah, that's a marriage first. Well, it includes marriage, but it includes any kind of relationship. God was just saying, I...
And this sounds so strange, but it's it's just the way it is. God was saying, I'm gonna create a system in which. I am insufficient. I'll make myself insufficient in everything. I'm gonna give you an indirect way to get my love and grace that's not just vertical.
Huge huge passage. And then you go to, you know, Matthew 26 where Jesus is on the mount, and he's suffering great blood of. Were great at it. And he's suffering at it. And he's sweating great drops of blood, and he's in a lot of toro, and he turns around to to to to Peter James and John says my soul is very is distressed.
Here's god talking to the father, but he still needs people around him. And there's tons and tons of verses about that, where when we learn that relationships, I believe that the bible and the science teach. Relationships are the number 1 way. We lead well and succeed and stay healthy. You can't overstate it.
Yeah. There's there's over 60 scriptures in the bible that are 1 another scriptures. And speaks of needing 1 another in our lives, and it's definitely a an intricate part of of being a disciple of Christ. Mh. So in people feel you you talk about relational nutrients.
Can you explain what relational nutrients actually are and and how they relate to our leadership health? Sure. I I was trying to figure a way to let people know. Practically and specifically, how can you build someone maybe it could be your child? It could be your spouse.
It could be an employee of yours, but somebody care about. How can you build them up specifically? Because we'll... You use words like courage and What is that, Matt? You know, did do you pass somebody in the back and say, go forward well I don't know.
But wanted something more, a little more specific. And I started thinking about, the concept of Bio Nutrients. Ryan, you know, we're all trying to be healthy these. Days and take our supplements and, you know, work workout right and sleep right, and that's all great science. And the supplements are a big part of it And if you don't have enough iron in your, you know, whatever you take every day, you're gonna probably have a blood problem.
If you don't have enough calcium, we probably have a bone problem. They're just they're necessary. So I thought that's the way that I see relationships handled is that we have to transfer these nutrients and that's why they're called relational nutrients instead of bio nutrients to each other to give us the health we need, but They're not given in a capsule form, they're given a conversation, a text, a lunch, a dinner a, you know, a a phone call where we transfer the good things we need, and we receive the good things we need so that we can have great lives. Yeah. Well, you...
With that with with relational nutrients, you you do an amazing job of categorizing these into 4 quadrant. It's I love the way that you categorize them, can you explain you know, the the quadrant 123 and 4 and and how that all works. Yeah. Sure. That's sort of how it just broke down really as I was studying it Ryan.
There are 4 quadrant as you said. And there they're probably 22 nutrients and they're spread out 6 5 or 6 in each quadrant. But the first quadrant is is called b present, PRESE and t be present. Be present with 1 another. In other words, shut up and listen.
You know, sometimes as leaders, we talk too much, And we've got all these nuggets, but sometimes when a person suffering, and they're what we would call in the well of being overwhelmed or discouraged, or feeling like a loser or feeling like that got impostor syndrome. Sometimes we feel like a need to tell a lot of words, and they're not listening. What they knew need is for us to be actively involved in being there emotionally being there for them, letting him know we're on their side and just tell them, I wanna hear it and that you're willing to listen to the hard stuff without giving tons of advice. And so be present of all those 4 when I work with leaders, That's the number 1 that I have to really drill down on because leaders are kinda trained more to talk than to listen, and it works against him. So I learned that skill.
Like if you go to a job chapter 2. It says that he had lost everything. Right? He was in deep suffering. And it said his 3 friends sat with him and did not speak a word to him for 7 days and 7 nights for the new grief was very great.
Now we know that that's the Jewish shiva. But it's... Sometimes the best thing you can do is to totally understand someone's feelings and say things like How are you feeling about that? That sounds overwhelming. Tell me more about that?
That's being present. The second 1 has is a little little difference called convey the good. Sometimes people just need I called a little relational prozac just to know that you care about it. And so, you know, good friend of ours, Ken Blanchard. He's a fellow that teaches at the institute.
He also has always said, you know, if you see it say it. And so if you see somebody, you know, walking down the hall, and you just noticed they're handling something well. Just say, by the way, that was a tough meeting you were in. And you had some difficult things to do. Just well done or saying to your your your your kid, you know, I love the way that you...
You didn't do really well in the game, but I loved your heart that you tried your best. People will remember that especially from what I call the leadership mega. They will... Because of who you are if you're a leader, they remembered for the for the rest of their lives that you said that. So convey the good when people need it.
People need hope and respect and they need affirmation. The third 1 has to do what was just called, you know, deliver reality. And deliver what's real what's true. And that means sometimes we need kind of a gandalf figure. You know, the guy lord of the rings with the long long, you know, the guy lord of the rings with the long beard, because he had wisdom and ways to look at things that nobody else said.
And sometimes people need a strategy that they're. Sometimes they need a plan that they'd hadn't thought of. Sometimes down under... They need to to understand Why? Why is this happening in my business right now?
Why is this happening in my sales. Why is this happening in my family? And they need somebody who has wisdom to say, well, because I saw what happened in the dynamic and the conversations you've been having with these people. And it's this is what went on. And here's how we can help you.
They kinda go underneath to the why. And also, they provide personal feedback. So just conveying delivering great reality can be a huge, huge, huge, change maker in somebody's organization and family. And the fourth 1 is call to action. And that's kind of the butt kicker 1.
Like, we're not just supposed to take these nutrients to say, thank you very much. Give me more. Sooner or later, We've gotta do something with. We've got a a Cta. We've gotta say now what are you gonna do.
We found that from neuroscience. Right? If you do some action or something you've heard, whether that be a podcast like yours or something else read a book. If you if you do an action, it's likely the stay with do the rest of your life. If you don't do anything about it, but just kinda think about it and don't take an action.
The brain just because not that important, You can lose in 3 months. So what are the calls to action? What's the challenge you can do, what's a plan you can have? What's the strategy you can follow and that makes all a difference. Now, if you can think about those 4 categories being present, delivering the good things, bringing reality and the call to action.
The first 2 are kinda more on the grace end of being there for somebody. It with some truth, but mainly about just totally being there with somebody. The last 2 or more about the truth. Here's some information. Here's some tech here's some techniques or here's some data you might need.
And so all of our nutrients are some combination of a certain amount of grace person needs and a certain amount of reality or data or truth they need. You know, I have found in in my life especially, but I've also found it in in many others. That we we are attempted to go straight to the Quadrant 3 and 4 of providing reality a call to action. And in the last few years, through Townsend and Institute, just just learning how to really slow down and be present with someone or convey the good. Mh.
And eventually get to provide reality and a call to action. But Mh. Just slowing down and giving those quadrant 1 and 2 nutrients has been a game changer with my life and the way that I'd interact with leaders in our church and and whatnot. Any thoughts on how leaders can use these quadrant when they're interacting with others? Yeah.
1 is, once you familiarize yourself with they're they're in the book as as you said, Ryan. Familiarize and and learn a little bit about them. I... I'm a big believer in kind of that walking around management. Part of of coaches and leaders where you just around people and you use these opportunities to see them.
And it's really important. You'll find out which 1 they need. They ask them how they're doing. Well isn't that revel. Ask them how they're doing but sometimes we think we know.
And, many times, especially if if you're, you know an important person their life if you're a significant person, how they're doing, they'll say. I'm great. And then you listen a while, then you say, so how you're really doing? They may say Yeah. Well, when know 1 of my kids is sick or I really screwed up on this smith account.
I don't know what I'm doing. And you get that the reality, and then you can... You kinda know, alright. Is this the time to give them 4 steps to fix that? Probably not.
Not at it's the first thing they brought it up. This is the time to begin. You cannot lose. You cannot lose by by defaulting to Quadrant 1. It may not be where you end, But I I promise you.
Nobody's gonna say, well, you listen to me and cared about made a very deep level that was useless. Nobody's gonna do that. They're gonna say that made a difference usually, I get 18, you know, suggestions by now. So start by their default to that. And then you'll find out some people will go, I really need to hear that and that helps so much and actually, I...
You've helped me solve my problem. I'm good. Some people say, you understand me and not many people do, so then what would I do about so and so, and they will lead you to another 1 because It kinda like they settled down. They got listened to. They felt connected they don't...
They're not alone. Men they're going. I do have some problems to talk about. But kinda listen to them and see what they need next. Yeah.
I I love the the way that you put that as Quadrant 1 and 2 is grace, quadrant 3 and 4 is is more truth. In scripture many times speaks of of grace and truth, but it always speaks of it in that in that order. It's never truth in grace. It's always truth in. It's always grace and truth, even Jesus, and I think it was John 01:14 talks about grace and truth, and that was something that drastically impacted the way that I interact with in pastor counseling and with leaders with my family with my wife.
It was a huge difference maker with me. I studied that passage a long time, Ryan, and realized because, you know, the the the order is important in the Greek. I mean, the the syntax is important. And I finally think I figured it out was to be able to have a person listen to the truth you wanna say, you got to earn it by the grace. Because none of us who just get truth.
That's good. Without the grace like it. We sometimes to feel judged do we feel preached data or we feel condemned or we feel not not hurt. But if you've got the grace, they're much more open to saying, I'll listen to you because you earned it. We have to earn it.
That's really good. So, you know, a lot of people would read this book through the lens of how I can administer better to others. But you you talk in this book very very vividly about the fact that we need to receive. We need you need. Doctor John Townsend needs to receive these nutrients, not just give.
Why do you say that that's so important? Well, couple reasons 1 is you find all over the bible, you know, you you look at san corinthians 1 comfort 1 another with the comfort you've been comforted? Well, if you're the comfort and you haven't been Comfort ted. So how do you get what you've never experienced. But also because I see it playing out so much as a not only, you know, as a in the leadership in coaching, but I was as a psychologist in seeing a thing called compassion fatigue burnout, when people learn to give and give and give, but they don't know how to receive because they feel like it's been selfish.
What happens is they shorten their impact years, they shorten their lifespan sometimes, they shorten their their their effectiveness get shortened. So It just kinda makes sense that if you're gonna provide a fountain of truth and care and love, where are you getting it? Then then I'll have a lot of the christian leaders I work with we will say, well I get it from God. And I say, well, absolutely. And who else and they'll say, my spouse.
I'll say great. We need a great spouse. And I'll say where else and they'll say my labrador retriever Max. And I'll say so, that's your team. Yeah.
That's my team's. God my spouse and Max, and I'll go Let me break that down a little bit. So God, absolutely. He is the source of all. And Max...
Well, he's genetically engineered to lick you and accept you because he doesn't eat otherwise. So that's sort of a mu again, really. And I said your spouse is probably overwhelmed. And a lot of times when the spouse is listening, she'll say, you need to listen to this guy. Because I do love you, and I wanna hear all your hurts and hang ups and failures, But I I'm hearing too much now and you need a team.
And so all of a sudden people think... Yeah. I I do need something like that. And let's back point, though. It was...
Here's where they finally realized they have needs because they'll say the... The phrase, and I finally figured it out. Around time Was writing the books. Well, I'm a leader, and my people have these, but I don't wanna be a burden, and I would go, okay. Yeah.
You don't wanna be a burden. And then I ran across galatians 6, and it says, cast your burdens on 1 another. Bury your burdens on 1 another that you fulfill law of Christ. And I thought I think that's something different than we've been saying. And I'll go to the person say, you know this...
You don't wanna bird... Be burden no. I take burdens. I'm a leader. I'm a coach.
I don't wanna be a burden and I say, well, so this bible bass passage. You're a burden get over it, Accept your burden, and they'll go through this kind of a... I don't know They kinda go through a crisis of I feel like a high need person, and I'm gonna drain her You're not that person. You're not gonna drain everybody's to death. But you gotta get over the fact that your...
That your needs are blessed. And if you're keeping people from burden from taking your birds, you're not letting them fulfill the law of christ, which is a love love, And they'll go away, I'll give a homework assignment as a coach. Say when you're go to 3 people besides spouse and dog and God. And say something like, can we have lunch and I need to talk about some struggle. Make me talking with my kid or I'm with my income or my new job or whatever.
Just a little struggle. And he and see what happens, and they'll go in kind of anxious like, oh, they're gonna tell me I'm a high need person, high maintenance, and they'll come back and they'll go, you don't believe what happened. I talked to Jim, my buddy and he said, I am more than happy to listen to you. You have no idea that most of the time in our relationship, you are such a blessing than me. And for me to have the privilege of giving back just listening, being there karen about you praying for you, giving wisdom, it is it is an awesome thing, and they'll come back with their minds blown because they did not realize they were wired to have needs.
And if you wanna be a chain world changer, you gotta get those needs met. Yeah. We need to be needy. We need to be needy. Get over it.
That's right. That's right. So I look at my relational nutrients, sort of as a tank like an air cylinder that would be, you know, either empty or full or moderately full. I try to keep my relational tank moderately full with my life team as you've as you've taught me. Mh.
And but, you know, some relationships are fueling to us and then some are draining to us. Can you talk about this a little bit in your book. Can you can you help us understand how we can assess whether they're fueling or draining to us? Yeah. After you had an hour with him, do you feel like when in the world or you feel like taking a nap?
That's a quick and dirty way to do it Ryan? Yeah. I have a concept in the bible I have a concept in the book called the 7 c's to help clarify this for people that there are these levels of gain versus drain depending on the kind of person they are to make it easy for somebody to kind of think through where am I putting my time my trucks. And by the way, having people in your life that drain you is not all bad. If you got a if you got a 6 month old baby, that baby is gonna drain you and they should.
Their job is draining us until they... Grown up a little bit. So drains aren't always bad, but it's the way that the brains are done. I I and I'll explain that. The 7 C's start with the top most nutrient rich environment and they end up with the most nutrient drain.
The top 1 is what I call coaches. And Coach that anybody who has a specialty that could... Could conveying that could be executive coach music coach. It could be a sports coach. It could be a family coach.
Could be a spiritual director or counselor. But they have no need for you to be their buddy because this is what they do, and their whole time is spent to help you develop. That's a high nutrient type of relationship. The second 1 is what we would just call basically, our comrades like our comrades and arms. And this is the life team that you referred to that.
And I'll talk about the book. This is 3 to 7, sometimes up to 10 people who know it all about you, care about you, would never never judge you, but they wanna help you and tell you the truth and grow together with you. And those are invaluable. That's another high nutrient dense type of relationship. The third 1 is what I just call casual.
And those are those people, maybe your next door neighbor or somebody you go, your kids all play soccer together, and you got to know them of their nice people or somebody like a church, but you don't see them a lot. Don't go very deep. But they're just positive kind people, and they can make your lighten your your load for the day, and sometimes that leads to them being a farm team where you kinda think, maybe they need to be on my committed life tank because they're so good for me. That's the next level. The next level is is is colleagues.
And now you can't always pick the people you work with, not all the time, but I can tell you the research says that the best as much as you can get involved in it. The ones that are good at relationships, and they're confident what they do and they work well on teams, stay around those people, good relational, good con competency wise and work well on teams. They'll make your day better. Then you get down to the next level. Now I wanna move to a little more of the drain, but it's not a bad drain.
And that's what the this the c called care, CAE care. Those are the people who are just without. I mean, they don't have what they need. Anything from... You know, someone in a developing country, some ministry or some, organization that doesn't have any kind of resources like we have in the states, and they need your help and you're being there and your wisdom and your funding in your time.
Or maybe some business associate who is younger than you and or maybe new in your business and says, I I don't know how to do what you do. I you've been places as you've achieved so and so in terms of revenue and stature. And can you men mentor me? That's another kind of a care relationship. Sometimes it's just somebody in your life is having a hard time.
But we're all supposed to care. I mean, Jesus said, you know, the poor y'all always have with you. We have responsibility or is the great, the great prophet Stan Lee, who wrote Spider man said, with great with great power comes great responsibility. We have a responsibility. Yet, at the same time, we have to realize that we can't do it all.
And then the next level is chronic. Now this is a little tougher 1. Now chronic has to do with someone who has une ending problems and une ending crises and losing jobs and horrible relational conflicts and family things, and health things. And so many of they just don't learn the lesson they need to learn about life. They're not bad people.
They're not main people, they have what I would call a flat learning curve. I mean, if you've tried to mentor a chronic And time after time, you're spending your Saturday morning with them instead of seeing your kids play soccer, but, you know, and you give them, you know, advice and you give them bible verse, and you pray for me, and then they go out and they ruin their labs again and again because they got a flat learning curve. Now you and I both have southern roots, and and in the south we call at, bless their hearts. Jesse How's How Sam doing well, bless his heart. We know what we're gonna say about.
He just messed up again. And What I found out about leaders and coaches and and higher capacity people, Ryan, is that most of the time we get tied up there. Most of our energy kinda goes down that drain, and we've got to learn how to limit that because it limits all the things we can do. Because we're compassionate. We wanna help but some people, you have to have a little few more limits and less availability with sometimes.
And then the seventh 1 is the darkest. It's called basically contaminants. You know, it's people that make your life worse. And they're not just foolish people, they're bad people. I believe that there's even the world.
I wish I didn't, but I do. And these are people who are in be based, and they don't like to see successful people and so they tear up organizations and nonprofit and churches and families and they can tell you tear you up to and you have to have very severe with them. Do not spend too much time with the contaminant because they have deep deep character pathologist that that really are looking to make themselves feel better when others do worse. Now here the thing about is, you know, you you got a podcast for people that are wanna wanna change the world and and wanna make an impact. Most of us are bottom heavy.
I don't mean physically, but bottom heavy in terms of so many drains. And everybody always says okay I gotta start pruning those back. No not yet. The best advice I can give if you wanna right size this is start building up your coaches, then up the ones you can have and and, you know, Ryan knows this. Coaches are are worth about 3 x, what they cost us.
That's what the research is. So get more of that going in whatever I've got several coaches for different parts of my life. But get that going and also get that team together of comrades. And then you'll have the wherewithal and the strength and the discretion to kinda of figure now where do I prune back. And that's how you get a balanced life in the low with the gains for the drains.
Absolutely. So... There's people listening right now that say, okay, John, you got me? I'm, I'm, I'm convinced. Where do they start in practical steps in building a network of fueling relationships.
What does that actually look like? Well, Let's start the top again. Where's the biggest need? Some people might say, well, I need an executive coach. Well, you're on this podcast.
I get a whole of him. Right? Or somebody he knows. So go with people who trusted and just say that's my need is is business in some... I mean, this is a Christian business coaching format.
This is a, this is not everything. This is like a deep dive into a a triple specialty here. So but or your need might be? I need help with my family? You know, we're we're not functioning like we need to.
Or I need spiritual growth help? Or I need an emotional help. So where is life... Look at it as, where is life not going on all 8 cylinders. And that's where you start looking for the help and it helps there.
The second thing though is to start working on that live team, and I've had people say, I don't know where to start. Do I do I just get on the on the on the web and say, you know, 1 800 find a friend? No. That's not a really safe thing to do. So what I always tell people, if you really don't know anybody in your life that has great capacities in the book, I talk about the people who have lots of care, lots of truth that could be vulnerable vulnerability is essential in this.
They they appreciate structure. They're not just random people. They have kind pretty much common values. Not every single values has to be the same but common values, and they wanna grow and these sorts of things. Well, what III had to put together a little test for that.
What you do is you go a Microsoft contacts if whether you're Apple or, you know, Pc. And you go through to contact list, Everybody's got, I don't know, between 50 and 5000. Names in there. I did this on myself to see if it would working and it does and just go through and go, they would fit those criteria and they would help me grow, and they'd be mutual with me. It's not me fixing them and them fixing me as us fixing each other together, and you'll end up with a list of I don't know, 30 people.
I mean, you have to kinda take it the way that people that are currently in prison, probably not a good idea. Right? I've had people kinda question that. But you'll get them have some names. And then you take the top name.
Need to just give them a phone call and say, hey, we haven't seen each other a while. Can we grab lunch or coffee. And what you do in that conversation at lunch coffee makes all the difference because it will take... Building a life team takes somewhere between 4 and 6 months. You have to be patient with the process.
This is the first launch of the first person. Yeah. And I mean, I've had Ceos of a bill... Of a billion dollar corporations, and the guy took... He took 5 months, but he says worth has been doing this He contacted me like, the other day.
He's been doing it 10 years with the same people. It was worth the 6 months. Yeah. And you have a lunch and you say, how's life. But what you do is you take 1 vulnerable step.
1 little, not huge thing about awful childhood stuff. That's for later. But where you say, you know, my daughter's acting out or I'm not happy where my my returns are my business or, you know, sometimes I watched too much Tv or eat too much water. A small vulnerable step. And 1 of 4 responses will tell you whether they get the next lunch to see if this is gonna work.
The first group will go, you know, the weather here is amazing, and I love the food. Well, Ryan, what are they telling you when they do that? That you're not interested. I'm not interested, and you kinda freaked me out talking about vulnerable stuff. Well, nice person, but not life team.
Yeah. The second person will, say, Guy maybe your problem maybe you said my my teenage daughter's is acting out. Your daughter's is acting out? Yeah. She's acting out.
Okay. First thing you do, there's 14 bob over or someone give you. Do you hug your daughter, but you have to hug her not morning and night. Also, do get a lot of freedom because she needs a certain amount of free. And do you give for good boundaries unique boundaries?
And you gotta get on a in a youth group? And do you have an art. Art very. And how about sports And... K.
Ryan? What are they telling you? All truth and no grace. I'll truth and no grace and I am so freaked out about your vulnerability. It reminds me of my own, so I'll just be the advice monster, and that's what I'll do to stay safe.
Nice person, not life team. Have lunch with them 3 times a year fine. The third person will say, your daughter's is acting out. Yeah. Sorry are you really a christian?
Well, yeah. I'm a christian. I'm not sure because you see, if you're really christian, you have... Kids who were just toe the line. And I think you need to think about your own spirituality, but it's probably because something's wrong inside you.
What are they telling you? They telling you I'm a judge, and I don't spend a lot of times with judging people. So all those people, Great. Nice people, but not life. Here's the fourth 1.
And this is the 1 that went. The person stops and says, your daughter's acting out. Yeah. It's really scaring my wife and me. My husband and me.
And the person... Stops eating looks at she leans forward it and says, so sorry. You got a great kid there. How's does it feel? That's gotta be tough.
Can I pray for you or tell me more about it? And they get in what we call the well of being overwhelmed, and and you began to go, they get me. That person gets the next lunch. And then you have a few more lunches like that. And by that time, after 2 or 3 lunches, they're probably sharing their story too because so few people, especially in the leadership and coaching.
World you know, have this experience and that's when you just make the offer say I'm getting... I'm getting pretty intentional about my myself improvement, and I need some a few people that I feel like minded with that are safe and vulnerable and I loved our lunches. And are you willing to get together on some regular basis once a week once every other week once a month, and 95 percent of time they'll go, I don't have this. Yeah. I don't have this in my life.
Totally I'm in, and that's how you build it. That's tremendous. That's tremendous. 1 thing that you have said in the past that I've heard you say that I just wanna bring out is that Zoom is not as good as in person. It's sort of like eating a hamburger.
In person is eating a stake on Zoom or virtual means as is like eating a hamburger. Both are nursing though. And I... I just wanna encourage the audience that could be virtual coffee on on Zoom if if you don't have somebody that's close by. It's huge.
In fact, what I found out and because III was kinda resistant at first a few years ago. Now I found out it just works. I'll be in a group of leaders around the world, and they'll say, we we need to process some issues and we can all fly together. And so it'll it'll get kind of, you know, emotional. I mean, people talk about their families and losses of money and health.
And because zoom in the and the resolution capacities of pixels and all that and the sound is so clear, I'll be able to... As I'm watching these folks, say, Sam, I just saw it tear in your eye. Oh what was that about? And then Bill in another country goes, I saw it too, and I wanna understand it. So I'm a fan.
III I'm I always tell you well, do you want me to get you AAA person face to face as a b level person or do you wanna an a level person on Zoom? Okay. Okay. You got me. I'm want the a level person?
I, if you can get an a person, live locally fine, but push comes to shove. So a a leader that that loves what you're saying and wants to do this you know, has a list of people that they could do it with. But they just struggle with vulnerability. What could you say to help that person, you know, that's feeling weak or exposed with vulnerability? I would say I I get it.
We're all like that. It's... I don't know any leaders who don't struggle with that at some level. So I would like to normalize that for you. But the second thing is I'd make...
I give you a little homework assignment is to find somebody safe that you really feel safe maybe your spouse or maybe somebody that you know, you don't... You're not really open with everybody, but is there 1 person in your life. And to say, I need to do a thing that this guy on Ryan's podcast said to do a role play. And just role play opening up to that person and that person watch what they do. Watch how warm they are and watch how welcoming they are and watch how encouraging they are and realize, okay.
I just had an experience where I was terrified, that I'd be rejected or I'm not gonna do this right or this isn't natural for me because I'm better with stats and numbers, but I said these things about some struggles, and I feel so alive inside. I feel so like better and realize you're getting ready to do that with some more people. So a a little of beginning role play with a very safe person is the very best thing you can do. So in other words, just jump in and try it. Jump in shots.
But not in the deep end in the baby pool. Yes. Yes. Of course. Before we...
I've got a couple of short concluding questions, but I just wanna ask you, is there anything else regarding people feel this this phenomenal book that you may would like to bring out anything? Yeah. I would say that most people who are watching this podcast are on the higher capacity end of life, which is kind of a double digit sword and realize think about Jesus words to the 2 sisters Mary Martha. A lot of us end up being Martha's, You know? And we're just putting her act together organize and we're discipline gotta have organization.
You gotta add discipline. You gotta be mission minded, but it really helps to default out of that, into you as a person with other people. Because the thing about it is, and this is kind of the great Aha is that people who are good not only with structure and task and strategy, but are also good with people in relationships. Their success level is always enhanced. You might think this is a waste of time.
I don't do it well. Let me go back to the numbers, not true. All the research says you've got to make what they would call attachment based behaviors and it will win for you because that's how God made us. Yeah. So good.
That's so good. What's 1 ritual or routine that has helped you produce. You've produced so much in your life so much books and organizations and just success success success. What's 1 ritual routine that's helped you do that? Well, yeah, we're all busy.
And I... And they're the... There's kind of the half twos in life, and I I do the half toes. You? I've got marriage a family, and I've got, you know, self help and health and all less stuff.
Do the have to. But you have to make somewhere in line, you've got to make some white space in that calendar for the want to. People that create things don't do it just because they think they should. They've gotta feel some passion for. You know, that's kinda of what proverbs is 04:20 three's is the best.
It's guard your heart, because that's where the issues of life come out And all of us have... I don't know, Ryan Ryan's got a great book Start with a passion. Right? And so make space with it because that's where God comes in and says, I'm gonna change direction for you. There's somebody I want you to talk to that you've been thinking about.
Or there's a business I want you to start, or there's some difference in how you do church or whatever, but if we're never in that space of the white spaces, we're always doing the should, and the soon you have to, but make sure you got a few hours every week for the desire that want to the passions. That's wonderful advice. So what's next than the life of of John Townsend. Well, we continue to have a lot of good times at the institute that you're regret of, and we're always developing that. Also have a pretty full, you know, portfolio of coaching class that I really enjoy, and that's just a lot of fun for me.
But kind of the 1 thing that's taken time now is my first textbook. I've written all these books at a at a, you know, market level, but the institute asked me to write a textbook on Christian counseling, more at a research and technical level. And so that requires a different way of writing and thinking, You know, my books are sort of like, you know, I sat down there with, you know, Jim, the leader of this company, and then Sam leader of this company in so 0 here, and we talked a while, and then we took a break and then So So opened up But with a technical book, you can't be that informed, we you have to say, well, there's 4 research studies that say this and this and this. But if you're gonna get a grad degree you need it. So I'm trying to learn to write at a different level now.
So pray for me. That's tremendous. I sure will. Absolutely. And I can't wait to get my hands on that book.
Okay. I'm sure it'll be a great resource. Well, doctor Townsend, and thank you so much for... Being willing to join us. I greatly appreciate your time today.
If if people wanna learn more about Townsend and Institute. Of course, the people feel book is anywhere you buy books, Amazon in different places, if people wanna learn more about Townsend and Institute, where do they go to get to that? Just townsend institute dot com roll all over there and the inform, the the the websites really easy to to negotiate and navigate where you wanna go. But And I'd also like to mention, doctor townsend dot com, I believe, Mh. Has, resources on coaching and Tl and Mh.
Which is townsend and leadership groups. Tremendous groups have been a part of all of that as well. Well, we also have a new assessment to tea rat townsend personal operational assessment tool. In 5... In 5 to 7 minutes you can find out where you are in terms of your internal wiring, what you need to work on and that's getting really good results.
To. Yeah. Which is very intricate involved with this book hiding love. You picked that up on. And yes.
It's this is this is sort of a part 1. Yeah. And this is a part 2. Well well said. And I and I love them both.
It's my number... Literally, I've told this often it's my number 1, my number 2 book of all time. Wow, it's it's impacting my life that much. Thank you. Thank you again, doctor Townsend.
Thanks, Ryan. So this concludes our show today. My name is Ryan Franklin. Thank you so much for joining us on the Christian leader made simple podcast.
Copyright © 2024 Ryan Franklin. All rights reserved.
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