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Daniel McKillop on Biblically Navigating Leadership Transitions

In this conversation, Pastor Daniel McKillop, founder of Kingdom Speak, explores the vital essence of successful leadership transitions, emphasizing the significance of generational shifts and the handling of legacies. Drawing from biblical models like Elijah and Elisha, and Paul's guidance to Timothy, Daniel highlights the crucial moments when the torch of leadership passes from one generation to the next. Delving into the treacherous yet transformative phase of transition, he sheds light on Elisha's pivotal role in becoming a prophet within Elijah's realm. Also, Daniel addresses the complex nuances of handling past vulnerabilities, drawing parallels to Noah's sons' reactions. He challenges listeners to celebrate legacies while embracing the imperfections of previous generations. Don't miss this special episode of The Christian Leader Made Simple podcast!

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Well, thank you for the privilege to be with you, Ryan, and it's it's been a conversation that I've been looking forward to since. Your invitation a few weeks ago. And so it's it's just a privilege to be here. And I, as I was hearing you talk about your book, and this is not just a prop, But this is on my desk, and it is part of a daily regimen of trying to develop my leadership abilities And so thank you for your contribution to that and the impact that you've made in in my own life. And so absolutely.

We're honored to be here today with you. Kingdom speak, just a real quick history of it was kind of the this the step child of of our Covid pandemic era. So we all were kind of thrown into the midst of what do we do now with the surplus of home time and no travel. And in our case, for our church. It actually went through a series of, off and on about 5 to 6 months where we couldn't even have in services.

You were locked down very tightly in Canada for for quite some time. So this so this originated actually during that time of Covid, February of 2020 or in that. Absolutely. I think our first episodes went. Live, maybe in April.

But it literally was, you know, what what are what are our folks gonna do? You know, their home. They Yeah. And when when we're locked down, I'm talking locked down to the point of we're in a very rural setting. And so we...

There was there was seasons when we couldn't even travel 30 minutes to where we normally the next larger community where we we get... Groceries. That was off limits. You know? So they they were home.

What are they gonna do? They're they're gonna have to... So that that was kind of birthed in that season, and then it just has taken a life of its own and our relationship and friendship is 1 of the many benefits that we've experienced because of that. Yeah. It's been a...

And I'm not sure exactly when started listening to it, but it's been quite some time couple of years now. And it it was definitely timely. It was there was not a lot of podcast like yours out there. And so it was a it was a for me, it was just AAA good you, you know, you guys put some entertaining things, but then also some learning things, and it's just a good variety of of of content that I, I have thoroughly enjoyed it. So thank you so much for doing that in your team.

Your your studio, by the way is just phenomenal. You're you're in your office now, but you're your, your studio. If you have not seen his studio, where can they where can they find a video option of sure kingdom speaker, or and just tell them, you know, in general where can they find kingdom speak So, it's available on, obviously on all of our, all podcast platforms across. Cross the spectrum, But it's also video, as you've mentioned as well as audio. So we're on Youtube.

But if they if they want a shortcut to to wherever they can find us. They can go to kingdom speak dot c a for Canada, kingdom speak dot c a. And all the links are there. So, yeah, we... Again, back to the fact that when we started it, it was...

We we really didn't know what the longevity would be. We didn't know whether it would resonate. So a lot of it was done here in my office for the first few months. And then Okay. When it started gaining the attractions when we invested in the studio.

So we enjoy it. Well, it is it is top notch. And may maybe 1 of these days, I'll I'll have a... My own studio for the podcast. Who knows?

My, just just come and join us here if you don't if you don't get that, just come. I was thinking that same thing. Maybe I could just come join you. Yeah. Absolutely.

So today, leadership transitions are, obviously, it's a it's a routine topic for leaders today, Sure. Which is why we chose this particular topic for us to speak about today. And I realized after talking with you and texting back and forth that this is a strong passion of yours, and and you have your own story of transition. And so I've asked you to be on... Show today to talk about some unique things and some biblical things regarding transitions.

And so can you kick us off by just el on your advocacy for conversations surrounding successful leadership transitions. Absolutely. This this statement is is not original with me. I don't I don't know who to describe it to. But I definitely adhere to it.

We we would all agree and that this is very obvious 1 of the resonating passions that you have. That everything rises and falls on leadership. That's that's a very commonly held tenant. And I I believe that, But really, if we take it to its logical conclusion and we're buying into... The kingdom that we are representing, which is eternal, then we want our impact to even outlast us.

It it's it's something that I'm not wanting to die with me. So in order for my leadership and influence to... Impact beyond my lifespan, then it's very important that we deal with transition. So I really think everything really rises falls on the successful transition of leadership. Because if it if if we don't nail it in transition, it's possible to build something in our life that we I I know this is a bit of a play on words, but we kill in our death, it it's Yeah.

When when we die, it dies. So in order to prevent that, I think we have to talk about transition. Yeah. So just for clarification, I mean, we have a lot of we have business leaders, business christian leaders on this podcast. We have, you know, ministry leaders that are that you know, work a full time job and and volunteer in their church and and then we have pastors and even full time staff, things of that nature, that I would say that that that is that is probably applicable not just to senior leadership, but that's applicable to any leadership.

Would you agree with that? 100 percent, 100 percent. I believe it's... And I think you mentioned in our pre show prep when we were the, you know, in the weeks up to this. I think you mentioned that you had pastor Raymond Wood on as Mh, a host and and maybe even spoke some on transition.

He made this statement and I think it fits every level, but for sure in his position as a senior leader, that every pastor is in transition. I think ever none of us are in our positions forever So it doesn't matter if I'm in the Sunday school department that doesn't matter if I'm a heading up the hospitality team, or I'm a Ceo of... A successful company. I'm not that forever. Yeah.

So eventually, there will be a transition. Runway or the other, Whether you're being promoted to a different different role or your, aging out or, you know, health gets you or, absolutely. I guess you're you're always working towards a, transfer of leadership in some form or fashion. And I think this is part of what what resonates with me Ryan as far as the passion that I have for is I'm the recipient of that. So I'm I'm pastor a church that is, you know, somewhere around 93, I think years of age.

Wow. So 1 of the 1 of the concerns that I had when I was coming into more senior leadership was look around the landscape of of of Christianity in general and find how many evangelical churches, how many pent hospital churches that are a hundred years old. Yeah. It... It's...

They're they're they're fewer than they are common. And so the reason that we're even here is that that speaks to somewhere there's been successful transition. Somewhere Paul handed it to Timothy and somewhere, Moses handed it to Joshua somewhere, there has been a hand off. And in my case, it... It's happened 3 other times.

Mh. And I think it's important that we don't mess it up because the farther that we get down the the corridor of success. The the more par paramount it is that we get it right. And so I I didn't want to drop the ball, so to speak. In or or the Baton in in this particular season of our church's history.

Yeah. And And I would love to hear a little bit more about, you know, even from a personal standpoint, the transition that you experienced in your life and I don't know if now would be appropriate or or Sure a little lighter. Mh. Yeah. Yeah.

I I think an interesting part of it is that it... My father was the pastor. And so, you know, from an outside perspective of it probably could have the appearance that there's, you know, some fam familiar hierarchy component to it. But that that really was not the case. It was it was a divine ordained transition, But I had people coming to me and speaking.

To me because of the family component. Mh. That, you know, be cautious of this, this will ruin your relationship with your dad to you know, and then and and and so all of this contributed to, a bit of a a cloud of anxiety, a bit that... And I know that's maybe being a a bit vulnerable there and open, but You know, I I didn't wanna lose the relationship with my dad just to fulfill what I felt like God had called me to fulfill. So, that awakened the, awareness in me that let's get these transitional elements right.

So you get hyper sensitive to the to the details. Yeah. Words of the of the... Where they... Where where they could fall off, You know?

Yeah. And and where were the potholes holes so to speak? Yeah. In in in the transition process? And so because of the fact that it it it was a spiritual journey.

And I understand that the community that we're talking to is larger than just that. But I began looking into the word of God for what are the examples? Of successful transition that we can that we can follow. And and so in in my case, it was the fact that we have an an an an old church so to speak as far as the... A mature church.

This is not a new church. Right. And then it's a father son, naturally speaking transition as well as. Outgoing senior pastor incoming. Would you say that that made it easier or harder?

I'm gonna say that... In in the end, it was easier for me. And and and there may be there may be different opinions everybody experiences it differently. But... Yeah.

And we can get into this more. It it takes 2 for every transition to work. You know, absolutely. Sort like a marriage. Yeah.

Yeah. Right. So there's there's there's there is a sharing of responsibility. And so I guess I would say at this point, and, again, we may circle back to this later. Open communication with my dad and and just that...

Yeah. That... Commitment from both generations, we are going to make this work. And and if I can save this Go ahead. Well, if I could...

If I could just say this with without sounding, there there's there's no arrogance or or or pride in this. I don't even think the church realizes the amount of work that goes into making transition work. I don't think a congregation even fully grass. It's massive. What's going on.

It's massive. Yeah. Yeah. But your but your hyper sensitivity to the details. I'm sure through prayer through you know, just logistical, through emotional, you know, all of the dynamics that are involved in that your hyper sensitivity to that, I would imagine has has created that smooth process for you.

Sure. And I and I and I I say that tongue and cheek smooth because I'm sure it was quite challenging at times, but a successful transition. And I think that's ultimately what we're looking for is successful. It that's never going to be. You can't take 2 men that are leader quality and and and have there not be differences of of administration.

And... Absolutely. If you have 2 seen 2 senior leaders. You're gonna have AAA competitive nature generally with both of those leaders. Yeah.

And you're gonna butt heads, and And I think that that's where even some of the things within the Christian leader blueprint is comes in and it's so important like being able to to have healthy conflict healthy conversations. So You know, right to to not ignore and not be passive and in a and an approach to resolving things that that may be differences of opinions. So I think that's a... I think if there's if there's 1 thing just to to just kind of hook onto to what you're saying there. Yeah if it's going to work, there has to...

There... You... You've gotta get rid of insecurity. Yeah. Confidence, is that thing that is necessary?

Is that possible? Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. I I received that.

Absolutely. We have to scribe. You know I think there's an interesting thing here. There you go. I got you.

I understood what you honey. I think there's an interesting biblical example that we can give give here. K? Hebrews eleventh chap gets a lot of credit. It's it's Okay.

Faith hall of fame. It's it's where the successful all go to hang out. So... And it's where we run when we're... Needing encouragement, and, you know, now there's certain parts of Hebrews love we don't wanna read, like the son under stuff and all that.

But you know, we we we we we kinda resonate the faith element. Mh. Hebrews 10, That was gonna come to shock to to your highly intelligent audience, but comes before Hebrews 11. So it's it's the lead up is... Casting, not away your confidence.

The precursor to maintaining faith is maintaining confidence. That's good. So without confidence, faith doesn't have the rails to run on, and you begin losing faith. That something's going to work. And so I think that outgoing leader to your point will never be free of insecurity but that outgoing leader has got to be secure enough and who he has been and who he will be and the purpose of the next phase of his life.

And the incoming leader has to be secure enough of and who he is and whose God called, who God has called him to be that he can let the outgoing leader be the man while still embracing who he is, and and that is... That sounds so easy to say. But that is the crux of the of the matter right there. But is but is a powerful powerful statement and so true. That is, I've never been in your shoes in and in transition the way that you have.

I've I've witnessed it on several occasions with different churches and even some of the clients that I work with have have moved into transition in in that manner and so I've got to witness it firsthand. But your statement is so true that, there... There... You have to be settled in your shoes. And I think that's not always the case for everybody.

It's a it's a process to work on, I think even prior to transition, hopefully, the Lord is moving people to a to a process of working on that and and and removing those insecurities. Well, I think 1 of the things is, if we're not careful, we we and we view and and and maybe con leadership with position. Yeah. And so if we don't have a position, we don't think we're leading. Mh.

If... And and so especially in the case of... Through that transition period, you know, or or you're not the senior leader, so are you anything? Because we don't think influence can happen unless we have the position. And and the moment they change the pla on the desk all of a sudden, I have a ministry, You know?

And So the the the danger that I see in that is if... And and now I'm talking to myself, futuristic futuristic. I want to remember this when I get to this point in in transition. That my ministry is not tied to my position Yes. I had ministry before I had a position.

Say that say that a little bit louder and again. My ministry is not tied to my position. Yeah. And, you know, it... That rolls off the tongue so smooth, but if we're not careful, And and I think I think something that's lost on us is that the man that saved Egypt or second in command.

You do not have to be in that first position, senior position to make an impact and to make a difference I'm so I'm so glad you said that. And and Daniel, when I settled into my shoes, into into the fact that I am not... I I'm not... I was not built to be a senior pastor I was... I...

My gifting are so much better used in the context of an organizational style church. Behind the scenes. Yes. And when I when I settled on that, it was it was huge for me. It was life changing for me and and you're right, calling...

I can live out my calling in a lot of different ways. I I could go be a senior pastor. Shock it, But I could also stay as an assistant pastor and utilize the gifts in a much greater way. Maximize your influence. This is not exactly what we're what we're talking about here today, but I think it's a great point that our our our calling is not necessarily tied to our position.

Right. Right. Love. And and so here... Here's what I think happens and and and and and this could be a discussion of its own.

But I understand in the local church that that the past the pastor role is is elevated over maybe the other 4 fingers of the 5 fold ministry. Sure, yet in ministry, who says that Trumps any other role of apostolic ministry. So that that, in my opinion that that that unhealthy view of ministry has men aspiring to be a pastor when maybe they're a teacher. Maybe they're an evangelist. Maybe they're And so it has people aspiring to it that shouldn't be there, and it has people staying there...

That should be moving on from it because the moment that they re that position, they think they're nothing. Yeah. And so that affects. Absolutely. Because the guy that's coming in thinks he's nothing, and the guy that's there thinks I can't let it go because I'll be nothing.

Yeah. I love... This is subtle. I I don't even know if you purposely. Did this.

But in your bio, when I asked for a bio from you, you said that you lead a team of pastors teachers and leaders, a across multiple campuses. Mh. It's it's it's subtle. But but it's like you made sure to elevate the teachers and the leaders. Maybe not to the level of pastors.

Maybe there's... Maybe there is a difference I, you know? Sure. I I don't feel... I I don't feel I respect authority by all means.

Sure. But Sure. But you know, I don't feel like I'm in I'm above. I'm a pastor at Po. I don't feel like Above any ministry leader.

That I lead. I may be above and position. But as far as, we're mutual adults and we have calling to increase the kingdom of God. Right. And and we're all working together to to do that.

But I I love the way that you you put an emphasis in your bio even on leaders, Yeah. And teachers. Such such an important thing. Well, I I... That's that's another another whole avenue of the discussion.

But let me let me just say this real quickly to that. I I think the anointed leadership and appointed leadership. Is something that's not talked about enough either. And appointed leadership the 70 were appointed. Mh.

And they played as much a role in turn the world upside down. As the anointed did. And I think part of the problem is we tend to elevate the anointed, and I'm not I'm not speaking down on that. That's necessary and it has its as its position. Absolute.

Yeah. But man, you can't you cannot accomplish the fullness of the kingdom of God without the appointed leader. Yeah. Yeah. For sure.

And I think that it's incumbent upon us back to your point. It's incumbent upon us? Who find ourselves in positions of anointed calling, and I know that we're all anointed to be saints in in every area, but in spiritual authority. We're anointed to operate in offices that maybe not everybody else is So it's incumbent upon us to recognize those other offices and to Yeah. And to give the due recognition to them.

And And III think that that's when the kingdom is really starting to thrive is when it's operating on every level So before we continue on with the podcast, this episode is brought to you by Christian leader community coaching. Are you a Christian leader experiencing low productivity. Or chaotic lifestyle, and maybe you're overwhelmed and just unsure of what it's gonna take to create growth in your life, And so I wanna to introduce to you our Christian leader community coaching program. Through our step by step framework, you're gonna discover a better rhythm of life. You'll see yourself more clearly, leverage your strengths and build more productive relationships.

With our full archive of courses, our supportive community of peers, a powerful leadership assessment to get you quickly focused, We also have live community coaching and so much more. And I've personally seen its huge impact with leaders from all over the world. Experiencing laser focus growth in their lives. And now through this community, this experience is open to you, and we wanna help you implement these simple frameworks and then celebrate with you as you experience significant results in your life. Don't wait any longer.

Go to ryan Franklin dot org and join the Christian leader community coaching today, and I look forward to seeing you inside the community. Now back to our podcast. I love that. We're we're all part of the body. Exactly without without 1.

We're not a complete body. Which without without the without the parts. Well, so, So back to transition. Yeah. We when anybody say we trail we could easily continue down that rabbit trail, but we're gonna we're gonna get back to transition.

You're... You you brought some scripture into play just a few minutes ago, but let's talk about Paul, and he encouraged Timothy to pass down a doctrine to successive generations. So how how do you interpret this in the context of leadership succession today. And what what should leaders consider when they're passing on knowledge and responsibility? Those are great questions, Ryan, and I think they strike to the core of of what we are trying to accomplish by successful, having a successful transition.

Paul is the first example that I ran to, and I think 1 of the peril that Paul is addressing, and it it really is apparel I'm afraid in many organizations, and that is we're way too short sighted. We we... If we can get it into the next generation, then we feel like we've survived. We've we've we've accomplished what we've been called to accomplish. Notice when Paul is talking to Timothy.

Notice the breadth that that generational span that he's covering. Paul is talking to his son in the gospel, and he is saying Now I already know that you have at Timothy. So now I'm gonna instruct you on what you should do when you're in my position. So I want you to find men who have been faithful, and are able to teach. Others also, we have a 4 generation span.

Paul was not just worried about Timothy. He was securing that this thing is going to get at least 4 generations deep. Wow. From where it's at right now. So not we steven the next...

Not even the next generation. Absolutely. And and and the problem is here. Is... And I'm gonna just walk myself into this.

Sometimes I'm just thinking about my day today. I'm just trying to survive. And But absolutely all is is reaching down into 4 generations of of leadership succession. Right. That's pretty powerful.

So he's telling him, you know, you gotta be. You gotta be instant in season another season and he's given him instructions on what a bishop is and he's given him instructions on how to handle vision and And, I mean... It's expansive and exhaustive. Everything that Paul is saying to make sure. So when we're talking transition, it is not just paul to Timothy.

It is paul to men that he won't even meet. It's it's the longevity is because and I think, again, to to to circle back to some. A statement that was made earlier is is we are... We're we're just... We're way too short sighted, and we've we fail to realize, especially those of us that are in in in kingdom work?

We are pe an eternal gospel. Mh. So is there really any claim that we got it through sick years. Like, we we really need to be focused a bit farther. And when you start thinking that way, it does change how you plan your day today.

Yeah. It does change how you teach and how you make sure. That what you're passing off will guide this thing beyond beyond your tenure of leadership? That's very good. And 1 of the things I think that happens, and and maybe this can can help us, if if I could segue into the next step is at some point, and and this was a gray area.

At some point, it transitions from Paul depositing it in Timothy. We have very much predecessor speaking to successor. That's the... That's the feel of Paul telling Timothy, this is what you need to do. Yeah But at some point, it switches, like in the elijah, Elijah transition to Elijah pursuing Elijah, and going, I'm going to get from you whatever I can.

So it starts with the predecessor, investing in the successor, then it transitions to the successor pulling it from the predecessor. That's interesting. That's interesting. Can you can you kinda dive into that just a little bit more and and tell I guess, explain a little bit more about what you're talking about there? Absolutely.

So I I can't really tell you him when my pastor, my dad started investing in me. I I don't know when that happened. I'm not sure. I'm giving myself thumbs up now. That's pretty good.

I was wondering what that was. I... I'm not sure that I've ever had a thumbs up like that on my... There we go. I guess.

So there you go go. And if you're watching on regular podcast, go to Youtube. There it is. You it on Youtube. You'll see it.

That's good, man. I'm I'm Man And Hey, man, and my myself. Okay. I'll try to keep my thumbs over the screen here, and it So we... When well, I I can't tell you when my dad started investing in me.

I can tell you. When I started pursuing him. And so what made that shift? What made that shift? I I think it...

It's something... And that's why III said earlier, it's like, a gray area, and and I think we all would arrive at it maybe at different points. In the transition. But as you feel the weight of that mantle settling on you, I think you realize at that moment, Then there's that value you in and in what and in what he has. And if I don't mind it from him, and I lose him, ou I've I've lost some some some invaluable.

Yeah. So it's kind of a shift from... You know, you you move into this with confidence like you talked about, with a competitive nate you're with that leadership energy kinda moving through you, You're you're you're you're ready to go storm with a water pistol pistol. Right. But it's a shift sort of to where the weight of this is kinda settled on you.

Not not in a bad way, not in a... And in insecure way. But but just a shift that that lets you know that this thing is bigger than you even. Wilson. And I...

Wilson and I need... I I need input from from you know, peers maybe, but I really need input from my mentor, and that would be, in your case, your your father. Right. And so I I can give you this example. Let me say this first.

And the the ambition and envision are often hard to to to delineate between which is which. And. When I'm saying ambition, I'm re... I'm I'm I'm really referring to un ambition. We all need ambition.

But... Yeah. Right Right. So vision that divine function of what you know the purpose of God is what you've been called to do and ambition that is out for for you and and and the promotion of self and what you desire. So Mh.

Ambition vision will both respond to the alter calls the same way. They both are moved emotionally the same way. So how do you know whether you're ambitious or how do you know whether you are a man of or woman of vision? How do I delineate between the 2? I really feel personally personally that what what separates or the ambitious from the visionary is how they respond when they meet authority.

Authority helps filter out the ambitious from the visionary. And so you to unpack that a little bit further, its ambition is always threatened by the clock. It's always threatened by... III have a narrow window of time and it's fleeting and it's passing and if I don't get my opportunity. What am Going to do?

Yeah. Whereas vision because it's rooted in an eternal call, it's not threatened by the ticking of the talk of the clock. It's almost like faith or lack of faith versus faith. It's it's it's almost like this is me doing this, or this wow I'm I'm just the vessel. Yes.

And when you get... You've gotta have that revelation as the as the, successor in transition. Because what happens, and I'm... Again, there there's so many different, there's no... There's no set rules for transition.

So our transition was very slow. It was over a over a period of years. So as the mantle began to shift of senior leadership from my dad to myself, God began dealing with me about things that are really senior level leadership, but I wasn't in the position. And so you go through that awkward moment where you are... Struggling with...

I I feel like this is necessary, but yet, I don't have the authority or the right to operate within it. So I bring it to the table, and and my dad can listen to this podcast, and he he could he could give his own insight to this. I bring it to the table, and he doesn't think it's... No. No.

It's it's it's fine. And so I'm sitting here because I don't have the weight of responsibility of that number 1 position. And I'm going, man we're not tapping into the potential of this organization. Are we sleeping at the switch? The And and and I'm struggling.

Right? And then I need to no. No. I don't I don't think I don't think we'll you need to do that right now. And and so what I found out is that number 1, if it's if it's a divine vision, it can handle a no.

It can survive a waiting period, and what I've found is now that I'm in that senior position, I'm implementing. What God gave me? It was not wrong. It was just a waiting game. It was just the timing wasn't right.

So the outgoing leader can't be insecure, but the incoming leader can't be impatient. He's he's he's got to realize that if God's giving it to him, and it's very likely that God is because God has called you for that position. But you can't be Moses and go out and start killing Egyptians just because there's a deliver or inside of you. Wow. That's part.

The timeline is very important Moses. And so you feel that inward tension of, I know what I'm called to do, but yet, I don't feel like I'm authorized to do it. And if you jump too quick, it sends you for for a 40 year trip in the wilderness. You're yeah. So so this...

You know, with... You mentioned Elijah, and Elijah, this is obviously, with them, it was a sort of a treacherous time. Would you say that what your talk... What you're speaking to there is is why people are so challenged during transition? Without a doubt.

Okay. Without a doubt. You look at someone like Elijah? Who is a to use it a more secular term, a world class leader. I mean, Moses is considered by many many leadership Guru to be the supreme leader in some cases and not in a sense of, God versus little gods, but even more than Jesus was.

I mean, he he single handedly led millions of people out of captivity without, you know, without military presence without... So You look at men like Moses and Elijah and Paul, and these men cast big shadows. Right. My dad was 1 such man. How do I follow a man like that?

How do you follow as an Elijah? How do you follow an Elijah who has called fired down from heaven? Has has stopped the heavens from rain, confronted the spirits of Ahab in J bell, dealt with foreign 50 prophets of bail. Oh, all while. He didn't even have, at least he didn't think he had AAA church that was with him, a congregation that was with them.

You know, who side are you on? He's asking them on the top of the mountain. So you have Elias coming up under a the shadow of a ministry like that going? Man, how in the world can I compete with that? Yeah.

Yet inside of elijah, is an insecurity that's flawed. Mh. He leaves the the what what many of us in leadership would would readily identify as the pinnacle of success. The the fire falling from heaven and then opening the windows of heaven and it raining and and and victory over the adversary. Man, let let's go on a cruise and celebrate the win.

He doesn't. He runs. He's got this this vulnerability inside of him. He's got a mantle on him and an on him that can tie heaven to Earth but it still doesn't make up for that vulnerability inside of him. And we find him now hun down in the back of a cave, asking God to take his life, I don't think it's a stretch to say, at least struggling with suicidal tendencies, but just didn't have the nerve to do it himself.

Yeah. I mean, he's he's he's he's he's struggling with a black cloud of depression. After after being on the hype, of of spiritual success. And so it's in this moment. I don't wanna hun out here too long, but it's just in this moment, that god visits him.

There's an earthquake, there's wind, there's fire, and I think there's all kinds of theological principles and connectivity here where where he just called fire down from heaven. You know? And it says, like, Moses or elijah to come back out here to the mouth of the cave. Come up here to the top of the mountain. Look, here's fire again.

And then there's these little clauses, but god wasn't in it. Mh. Then there was earthquakes, but God wasn't in it, and there was wind, but God wasn't in it. Then comes... A still small voice, and the instruction that came was this, go get Elijah.

So what every what every whatever every leader needs, what every dynamic leader needs is someone from the next generation. To help him overcome the vulnerabilities that he has. There is Wow no senior leader. I don't care how anointed we are that doesn't have an achilles heel. Yeah.

I I would agree with that. And so the solution to this issue that pulls you into this manic depression. Elijah is go get someone from the next generation to be with you, to serve you. And ironically, from that moment on, we never read. It's never recorded of Elijah.

Suffering with depression again. And so what the in order for there to be a transition, Elijah has to embrace the need that is within him. I need help. I can't get it across the finish line without Elijah. Fire is powerful, but fire is not gonna help me get it across the finish line.

Wind that will shred rocks is dynamic, but that won't help me get it across the finish line. Yeah. I need Elijah. That's powerful. You could you could keep preaching here.

Yeah. Okay. So let let me let me just speak speak to this 1 fact right here. So Yeah. Then he reaches back and takes the mantle.

And he strikes out and he finds Elijah. So now let's talk to the successor. So the the the the predecessor has to embrace. I need help. I can call fire down from heaven.

And profits of bail are nothing for me. But boy, this this this depression thing. And so then he goes by divine instruction, and he finds Elijah. And Elijah is not just sitting around waiting on an opportunity. Elijah?

What's... Go ahead. It's interesting there. What what's interesting there is that the vulnerability that was displayed there by elijah. And then the desire to seek, not just god, what was god's answer, relationship.

And... Oh good. Yes. It it's... God...

God ministers to us and heals us, yes, he can do it alone, but many times it's through relationship with others. And that's a critical piece critical piece of of even the blueprint of of building more productive relationships in the blueprint, but that's a that's a critical piece for even transitions what we're speaking of today. Absolutely. Absolutely. Love that.

I love that. Well, if if we're not careful, all of us, the the appeal of the sensational, we we we we want god to just fix it in a fire falling from heaven moment. Right. Because he just did. He just did man, but that's not the way he chooses to do it most of the time.

And so go form a relationship with the next generation. That's how you. That's powerful. That's powerful. Now, we're not gonna get to everything that we that we thought we would get to.

Sure. But, I really want a key end of this because I think you... I think you... I think you have some really good insight and some thought on on this that I would like to pull out of you. Talking about elijah vulnerability, the vulnerabilities of of previous generations.

Yes. You know, none of us are perfect, Daniel. I mean, we're... We have flaws. We have we have parts of us that are not pretty.

That's just reality. And and I know that this is something that you're very passionate about, but but using Noah son as an as an example. Because that's a powerful example. Can you tell us how different generations handle the... Can handle the imperfections in the vulnerabilities of the predecessor and in a positive in a in a good way.

Absolutely. III think that is the classic example. We we first of all have to embrace as senior leaders. We have to embrace. We are not perfect.

So as as part of this discussion, the longer we live, the more the more the more common our vulnerabilities are known. The... If the the more, you know, our real our friendship is, a a newly formed friendship, the longer our relationship goes, the more we know about each other. And subsequently, the more vulnerabilities that we know about each other. I know that This is a vulnerability with you and you definitely would have no problem finding them with me.

And so at that moment, we have Noah, Who has just led his family through the judgment of God. Mh. He has just brought mercy to us. I mean, we we are still feeling it to this day without noah, there's no us. So who would who would even think of casting shade on a man like Noah.

What when they when they talk about him in the new testament, They say he's a preacher of righteousness. But he still had vulnerabilities. And so he emerges from that. That arc plants a vineyard. Mh.

He then becomes intoxicated on his fruitful, and that's that's a discussion that we all could could talk about more. But right. Okay. Okay. And so now...

But here here's the deal. He's he's he's he's intoxicated. That yeah. That's a vulnerability, but he's not in the town square. He's in his tent.

And he is he is naked. He is uncovered. He is vulnerable. So he is an he's an older man now. He's on his way out.

He's He has met the need of his days built the arc brought his family through, survived, and now he's in a season of his life when the vulnerabilities are more noticeable. And Ham walks in and he comes back out, and he is mocking. The naked ness of his father. The 2 other boys back their way in. And they cover the naked of the previous generation.

So what what what comes to me out of this is the in every transition and in every predecessor successor relationship, you've gotta make up your mind right now. What are you gonna do with the naked that you discover? In your predecessor. Every successor needs to make up his mind now. When I discover a vulnerability in the in the predecessor, I am not going to exploit it because you will find them.

You'll find them. You'll find them. They're there. Yeah. And so we culture.

We're we're... I was about that I was about to mention culture. We're we're gonna cancel culture. That's it. And And so, you know, how can we how can we navigate celebrating the successes?

Of those previous generations, while still acknowledging, hey, my dad or my predecessor, is human. Right. And so I I wanna be clear on this covering it is not covering sin. Yeah. We're we're not talking covering.

We're talking covering vulnerabilities. Weaknesses. And so the farther we get away from Winston Churchill, the easier it is to pick them apart. And so the idea that someone is going to accuse, and I'm I'm not... This is not original with me.

The accusation, that comes from this cancel culture is, you know, Winston Churchill was a racist. Excuse me. I can't advocate for everything that he said but I definitely seen what he did to step in and stop the Nazi war machine from trying to exterminate a race racist. Let's celebrate what he did. My celebration of his successes is not my embracing of his failures.

Nor condo of everything that he did. But I definitely don't think we have to go through and tear down every bust of Winston Churchill because he swore or he was drunk or he was. Yeah. And so it be... Comes and incumbent upon the leaders of the next generation to settle in their mind.

What are we going to do with the naked and the drunken ness of previous generations with those vulnerabilities. And here's here's why it's important. If if you trace the the down of the generation that says, let's exploit the vulnerabilities of of our predecessor. They are can. They are the ones that only get to stay in the promised land predecessor until those are are qualified to be there show up, and then they're drove out.

Mh. The ones that get to process possess the promised land are those that backed in and covered with respect the vulnerabilities? Are of their father. They are the ones that get to move in and enjoy the land flowing with milk and Honey, So you really have to decide who do I want? Who do...

Who do I want my down to be? And that determines how I handle my up line. And then we're back to... We're not just trying to get from 1 generation together. Right there.

We're trying to get it at least 4 generations deep. Which is what all was after. So, essentially, what you're saying is, and and we're gonna wrap up here. But... Essentially what you're saying is is is that is that our future leadership even to multi generations in the future is heavily dependent on how we honor legacies and deal with the imperfections of.

That's powerful. We have no record. Brian, no record of Elijah ever bringing it up to Elijah. Well, you were just a depressed old profit before I came along. Yeah.

You know what it says he was. He was a profit to the profit. He minister? To elijah in his room. So that comes down to you can't be impatient.

Well, I'll have a ministry when I'm on a stage you gotta be willing to be a profit to a profit before you can be a profit to people. Goodness. We could go down another rabbit trail there. That's good. We good.

That's good. Anything else? Regarding transition that you'd like to say before I ask you my last general question. Just wanna make sure there's nothing else there that you wanna unpack before I move forward. I think I think the takeaway is is really that, you know, Elijah gets to...

Here here's here's... Let's just say this. Elijah gets to handle the mantle before he gets ownership of the mantle. Because he's minister to elijah in his room. Elijah just like here, take this, hang this over here, and he grabs it, and he feels that feeling again.

Wow that came across him in the field. And and he was just happy with that. And because of that, look at all the dynamic things that happened, in Elijah ministry in rooms because he was willing, as a successor to serve in private, he was blessed with an annoying that absolutely doubled everything his predecessor did in public. That's awesome. That's powerful.

Well, I I hate to end this conversation. We may even have to have a part too at some point. Yes. I I feel like we could continue talking for for hours on the subject, but there's so so much to it. So much to it.

And I... And I do want... We do have to bring it to a close, but I wanna ask you a question that I ask all of my guests it doesn't have to be related to this particular topic can be, but it doesn't have to be. What's 1 thing that you wish you could tell. Your younger cell.

I think the first thing I'd say is listen to what I'm fixing to tell you. I'm not I'm not sure if he would. That's part of the problem with my getting yourself. Oh my goodness. The...

Really, it it it would probably align with our topic. That we've been discussing. I I would say, worry less, and that that seems to be pretty pretty broad. I would just... The the the antidote to worry is trust in my opinion, and and if we look over our life, how many of the things that we've ever worried about ever came to pass?

I mean, worry has a pretty poor batting average. But yet, we continue to do it. And so I would I would try to be way more selective with the voices that we're speaking to me about this topic of transition. And well, what if this happens and don't let it ruin as I've referred to earlier. Don't let it ruin your relationship with your dad.

And and and I I would just worry less and and I would wait more. I I'd just be Yeah. Less driven by, you know, I'm 30 years of age, and this hasn't happened yet, and I'm and you're supposed supposed to be starting your ministry like, Jesus. Exactly. Exactly.

You know, are you gonna go start an evangelist ministry? Because you're not the senior pastor yet and and and and you, just worry less and wait more. I like that. That's that's great words of wisdom. Well, Pastor Mc aquila, this has been a great conversation, and I just wanna thank you so much for giving us your time.

It's been a privilege to have you on today. If people wanna connect with you in some way, where can they find you online, I know you mentioned it earlier, but I want you to mention it again. Your podcast, Kingdom speak. If you can just tell where you're at online and where people can sign you. The, the 1 stop shop is kingdom speak dot c a.

That's kind of all of our socials are connected there. Our church website, family worship dot c a, and they can reach out through any of our social media platforms and we'd be happy to communicate with them there. Alright. Tremendous. Well, I'll, definitely put those links in the show notes for sure.

So this concludes our our show today. And if you're a new listener, be sure to subscribe wherever you listen to audio podcast or on Youtube. And also... It would just make my day if you would take a minute to rate the show and write a review on Apple podcast or wherever you listen. My name is Ryan Franklin.

Thank you so much for joining us on the Leader made simple podcast.

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