Why Christian Leaders Are Burning Out Trying to Fix People
- Ryan Franklin
- 5 hours ago
- 13 min read
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What if insight and truth alone aren’t enough to create real transformation? In this episode of the Christian Leader Made Simple Show, Dr. Gregg Makin unpacks the neuroscience of lasting change and why so many leaders find themselves frustrated when people stay stuck despite powerful sermons, wise counsel, or deep conversations. With over 40 years of experience training and equipping leaders, Gregg explains how the brain processes experience, why early memories still shape present reactions, and how true transformation happens “below the waterline.” He introduces practical tools like Corrective Relational Experiences and mismatching moments that rewire the brain through safe, grace-filled relationships. Whether you’re a pastor, church leader, or Christian professional, this conversation will give you fresh perspective on how to move beyond advice-giving and help people experience change that truly lasts.
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Transcript
I probably over functioned and over listened and over cared and over all of that with people in my role because I was unaware of what was going on, of why I was doing that. I was trying to close the gap.
Welcome to the Christian Leader Made Simple podcast. I really hope this episode helps you learn and master the skills you need to grow your leadership, effectiveness, and enjoyment. Be sure to hit the subscribe button to get notified as soon as I post a new session so you don't miss a single episode. I'd also greatly appreciate any reviews, likes, and shares that you can give me. It just helps me extend my reach to more people.
So leaders, I know just how frustrating it can feel when you're in the weeds of work or ministry and life is chaotic. You're struggling to feel effective and you're just not enjoying leadership as much as you could be. And so to help you after many years of leadership and executive coaching, I've developed a framework called the Christian Leader Blueprint that'll guide you to find clarity in your life and leadership. It'll help you gain a better rhythm of life, it'll help you see yourself more clearly to leverage your strengths, and you'll produce more productive relationships.
It's a step-by-step guide to leadership transformation and I have that in two formats now. I have a free short guide that you can find on ryanfranklin.org and I have a book, the Christian Leader Blueprint, and you can find that in any format, including an audiobook, wherever you buy your books. I have a few more things on my website that you may be interested in, so just head on over to ryanfranklin.org and check it all out.
And now let's get to our session.
What if insight and truth alone are not enough to create real transformation? In this episode of the Christian Leader Made Simple show, Dr. Greg Macon is joining us to help us unpack the neuroscience of lasting change and why so many leaders find themselves frustrated with people that stay stuck despite powerful sermons or wise counsel or deep conversations. Despite all the effort that we put into it, people often stay stuck.
So before we jump into that, let me share just a little bit about Dr. Greg Macon. My friend Greg has spent over 40 years equipping and guiding leaders across a variety of different types of organizations. At one point, Greg oversaw a team of over 800 leaders in a nonprofit space. He's trained leaders at every level, from the Norfolk Naval Shipyard to churches to several educational institutions, including higher learning. At Townsend Institute, Greg is a coach with multiple certifications and he helps leaders move beyond just surface level change. And he currently works full time in his True North coaching and consulting practice. And he partners with his brothers in the Macon Institute for Neurochange.
So with that said...
Dr. Greg Macon, welcome to the show.
Glad to be here, Ryan.
Thanks for having me.
Yeah, I appreciate you agreeing to this. I know you're a very busy guy, but I'm looking forward to our conversation here today.
So to kick us off, we'll just jump right in. I'd love to hear what initially sparked—like first sparked—your interest in exploring neuroscience behind lasting personal change.
Yeah. Well, in those 40 years in church ministry, the reality was as I saw little change in people's lives—and maybe even worse—I saw little change in my own life. I mean after conversion, right? There tended to be little significant lasting life change. Maybe some people, right? Maybe they gave up smoking or maybe they quit cussing and things like that. But the reality was they weren't really much different than they were like 50 years ago when they got saved.
And so I think sometimes there's this misunderstanding—I know I certainly had—about how people grow. And what's really cool is that the neuroscience really supports what's already there in scripture. I think we just missed it—that there are these deeper ways that Jesus connected with people.
Yeah absolutely. And many pastors and church leaders find that even when they share powerful truths from the word of God people still stay stuck—as I mentioned—why is it that insight alone so often fails to create lasting transformation?
That's a great question.
Truth speaks to the left brain while most things where we get stuck—those patterns—they come from our right brain; what we often refer to as implicit core emotional learnings. And they're implicit because they're just outside of our awareness; they're core because they're these foundational things that got kind of downloaded into us at a very young age; there's a sense of either an experience or an emotion around it—some things we've come to just not know—but those things are just outside of our awareness and they're kind of lodged in our right brain; they remain relatively impervious to logic and beliefs.
So think of the apostle Paul: "I know what I ought to do." That's all cognitive left brain—but "I don't do those things." That's those right brain kind of core emotional learnings—and then he says "Well what I shouldn't do" is left brain insights; he knows all the truths—right? "I end up doing... What a wretched man I am." But there's these right brain messages that have been downloaded somewhere along the line—and that could be things like: I'm unworthy; I'm less than; I'm not enough.
I mean—the reality is—we all know we should exercise and eat healthy—right? Left brain—but often we don't: Right brain.
So I'm not saying truth doesn't matter—but without relational experiences it just doesn't get over to the right brain part where real change is kind of lived out.
So think about the woman caught in adultery—and notice where Jesus started—right? He didn't just kind of download some truth to her; he actually created this right brain experience with her; he knew she would have tremendous shame—I mean pulled out into public half naked—and there are these people who want to stone her; they want to kill her—and so what Jesus does is he calls off the judges and critics—the people who want condemn her—and then he creates this safe space for her—that he really draws near—so he connects first with her heart—and then says "Neither do I condemn you"—so that's this no condemnation zone—and then he shared at very end—the truth with her: "Go leave your life of sin." But he allowed that experience—that relational experience first—to touch her heart—and think of that as her right brain first—so she could receive truth in her left brain.
Yeah—I love that story—and it's—you know—he could have just healed her and walked away but he chose create these certain emotional experiences for her—to begin reshape her brain—and you could refer as like mismatching experience almost—right? Cause she expected more what they already wanted do—and sense had every right—to right?
Yeah—just heal her move on.
Yeah absolutely—or yeah let's all go ahead stone her cause had no sin—but doesn't do instead gives what needs she needs—that's things like acceptance understanding compassion empathy first because realizes how much shame has life completely different thing than expected that's why transformational
Yeah—with her—we don't know early life experiences were about—we can imagine last 12 years whatever was like shameful mentioned early experiences setting answer there sort shape way respond challenges today interfere today
Yeah So imagine park walking sudden dog comes us imagine one say it's grab bring close don't even like doing don't know should stay away two reactions might past experiences dogs animals seen parents told brought canine handler school pet dogs cool great love dogs whereas grew feared mom hated stay away never somebody family actually bit lighting going automatically reacts danger fearful step back bypasses left maybe been dog would bypass implicit core emotional learnings animals approaching unsafe react moment rather think cool problem
Yeah Can before move say more implicit implicit core emotional learning emotions
Yeah So again implicit below surface subconscious aware access opposed explicit specifically remember remembered past experience let's say explicit implicit might always felt nervous mom nervous felt uncomfortable knew that's core
Yeah go ahead
Sort under surface not conscious may really stop think comes maybe even inopportune times
Sure does Often triggered reaction much stronger situation person requires extra energy emotion experiences had brain predicting conditioned early throughout life good keep safe bad definitely want stay away not safe quickly learns anticipate automatically jumps action react those things only early childhood attachments patterns
Yeah lot laid early attachment patterns certainly impact affect reality only relationships could significant other people maybe Sunday school teacher remember learned fear adults did something didn't okay whatever want coach come near suck quit lazy experiences downloaded teachers pastors leaders coaches download message create story ourselves loser stories other people say back unsafe stories world world works end interacting world basis past stories ways viewing ourselves others world
Yeah whether good bad negative positive carry ministry leadership
Oh throughout life
Right Oh my gosh ever part probably grieves most Yeah unfortunately hard see log eyes easy see everybody else's turned 46 blind own stuff caused four month depression didn't going never experienced couldn't bed surprised didn't fire church hadn't Paid attention light dashboard going fact brother Scott tried warn kept going everything great Ministry's fine Family's fine Kids wonderful missing pieces under surface awareness didn't want deal came halt
Yeah Would care share unfolded process Would okay
Yeah So again found feeling very alone friends hundreds hundreds church often turns feels extreme aloneness times piece play unaware lonely wasn't connecting heart emotions needs guarding Yes grew home Macons Calvary Baptist Church didn't emotions didn't needs weak remember faith fact feelings feelings left ignored family church pay attention kinds going used old ways thought change started prayer chain hundreds praying anxiety roof depression never experienced devotions two hours Word kept looking advice things four months nothing changed left never touched right under surface old messages tapes needed processed processed people deeply connected good bad ugly parts kept hidden Say happens brain unprocessed experiences start resurfacing middle situations
I'd say roughly half time unaware acting doing shouldn't doing think David up parapet walking time kings off war kinds unprocessed Awareness below iceberg doing walking looking courtyards checking women bathing completely unaware ignored going paying attention other reacting something innocuous angry sad overwhelmed basically old emotional learning coming traveling Yes technically past present Yeah past should past comes present signal needs processed work through Say again past becomes present feels present signal need work through something there
Yeah maybe helpful son hiking path dome three twelve hours nonstop talking asking questions suddenly can't nine hours dad dad going hiking next hour stopped curious frank compelling fill silence couldn't realized anxious anxious close gap son close connection gap ruptured talk move took time process life team realize had dad rarely asked questions little interest unless interested brothers sports loved became pastor believe best ever son's pastor wanted make pray meals sorry brothers Scott Bruce can't pray pastor learned implicit core emotional learning connect ask listened Wow unfortunately probably lot ministry roles probably over functioned over listened over cared unaware trying close gap today life group good bad ugly meet regularly help process helped dynamic rarely comes does oh going old dad dynamic close gap don't Especially life team connected deeply accepted good bad ugly game changer Yeah process gone following years after 46 after experience counseling coaching heavy work built team process basically went move memories coming felt present buried past long ago Yes should quite alive present oftentimes Yeah now worked gotten significant healing support team done gone occasionally raise head little bit Yeah still come less less cool thing take back God take back team hear help make sense give need relationally acceptance feedback empathy get connect heart takes back again connect right actually begins changing used feel worthless one down less voice enjoy disagree still move close even see differently dynamic grew world often agree voice opinion like technical term called pleasing less present occasionally go back get need healthy way struggle similar pleasing present part occasionally raise head done deeper work doesn't often thankfully talked iceberg used word heard use word waterline describe deeper work needed lasting change Talk more How leaders level serve
Yeah iceberg Right up say think action pretty especially pastors leaders presenting nice self like Oh yeah left above surface child God know down heart think right used quite unworthy unknown unseen matter tried believing true told true memorized tons Bible verses quote again touched left missed right needed experience deep sense seen known accepted good bad really ugly parts Yeah Greg emotional hard pastors church hard times depth emotion needed explore unnatural got modeled keeps safe tend relationships distance yet Jesus opposite move connecting heart heart technically syncing Paul mourn mourn rejoice rejoice None talking cognitive beliefs come later sync up relational emotional side sometimes church missing half bring online great cognitive stuff really change starts glad bringing scripture crazy miss see part scripture look lens No fact jump funeral Fred's nephew died tragically tragic she's tearing family's trying make feel better doing better place heaven says scripture hey reminded truths God's ways ways higher ours true connecting left hers out sync made worse pained wailing mourning increased crawled skin wanted call create condemnation suggestions advice truth grace said sorry Phil must felt awful lost started talking paused said knew youth group aches shut listened talked nervous system calming longer alone got family missing connect keep using heart interchangeably relational emotional People need first Yeah particular situation trying logic emotional can't logic meet emotion Yes sense amygdala going blood thinking beliefs church longer offline needed connect relational experiential emotional piece waterline pastors miss Yeah Greg heard allude conversation already emphatically emphasize role relationships creating lasting transformation need relationships create lasting transformation talk What relationships powerful tool healing growth
Yeah story Jesus bleeding woman imagine life's basically unclean probably viewed dirty stay away imagine enough times beginning believe everybody awake sinful imagine lonely disconnected understood Yeah probably grown tired listening Oh comes bleeding Oh gosh let go let God better do here trying connect wants physical healing touches says stop touched hilarious didn't everybody did something wants create emotional relational social healing physical needed knew stops kind heal stops everybody whoa going says touched wants create emotional experience provide healing imagine gets eye eye rabbi listen messiah listen truth created experience safe says gospels told story tell story minutes long here's people stop telling mattered tuned interested felt safe opened heart really right probably surface full attention imagine said daughter imagine felt disowned tender connect intimate alone mismatching expected shame judgment condemnation made safe seen known accepted rewired replaced old story unclean unworthy known loved Wow relational experience want Jesus giving need Yeah point fact logic information knowing powerful emotional presence empathy drawing clothes important anything knew presence empathy Yes brought grace Always lead grace full grace truth lead makes truth palatable Yes changed God family team group part delivering nutrients missing began working addition already deeper experiencing changed radically nothing like avoiding truth avoiding make better fear times give much grace soft going People balance importance knowing instance give nutrients nutrients actually perspective advice challenge nature start grace Yes lead game changer fact question might well leaders start steps wrap give steps shift approach giving advice facilitating real change Yes advice monster big us Right much truth much experience knowledge download worked youth ministry backup truck truth download students waiting welcome arms changed care knew cared Lead attunement attunement means empathy steroids responding person emotion example gave friend funeral respond answers tuning tuning getting way studied research synchronicity happens especially moms happen dads grandpas grandkids grandkids papa loves experienced begin love Ellie's papa papa love experienced Lead attunement connecting emotion continue podcast episode brought Christian Leader Community Coaching Christian leader overwhelmed complexity figure grow team introduce Community Coaching program easy use online platform archive courses supportive community live group coaching elements customizable specifically team personally seen quick enormous impact team focused together learning mastering skills needed grow leadership effectiveness enjoyment want part help create implement plan community affordable afford focused growth results depend wait longer Let's together ryanfranklin.org join Coaching today look forward seeing team inside community now back podcast Second vulnerable connect heart tough appropriate vulnerability putting Facebook standing Sunday morning unfortunately pastor aired dirty laundry inappropriate vulnerability Corinthians dear open hearts wide mine calling connect heart heart another safe person safety involved Absolutely role person may safe pasture listening sense certain level vulnerable allow feel feeling mean share stuff take team process doesn't conversation emotionally needy person need help alongside enough capacity meet needs can needs met elsewhere Jesus body Christ Yeah connect heart third provide grace talking nutrients need acceptance feedback perspective containment tune person need 40 years might ever come greg advice Tell followed changed Actually think anybody changed ask Again understanding connecting heart put link show Notes resource People get make sure Absolutely attunement first second attunement connect heart another saying connect area Brian Ryan cool beginning show honest anxious Yeah worked through first time feels five years felt tuned said tell going lean feel acceptance didn't hey accept prayed provided acceptance mistake laughed laughed provided acceptance Ryan mistake can continued calm provided last hour Thank tremendous Anything steps advice give shift approach basic ones built truth piece might truth bring prepared soil fertilizers hold off grace connect provide pieces appropriate May may piece provide follows Sunday morning especially challenging create synchronicity difficult pastors share personal story connect emotions challenges head couple top tremendous actionable step begin shift approaching institute neurochange Institute Macon Institute neuro coach training lot would training executive coach leadership coach life coach also extremely beneficial senior pastor associate pastor wanting better tuning team love wrapping share How could people say tell connect Yep six month training program coaching skills covered started left sits front say hey important talk shift attuning learning connecting takes deeper surface iceberg real change happens exactly based Jesus based neuroscience gets core implicit emotional learnings new new relational experience saw examples shared hour provided helped shift profound today once corrective some refer mismatching shift back left actually said actionables develop actionable take forward next practice live paradigm grow use coaching skills scripture neuroscience understood provisionally approved ICF Yes not fly night program tremendous put together icf provisionally approved Yes Yes Once cohort through passes great thumbs everything else thumbs excited offering certification credential coaching world outside value training needed transform difference many quote coaches today important thing coming years selling point consider Where go find information Yep website www.makeaninstitute.com certifications neuro coaching click lots information fill reach connected When next cohort start March March Next year 2026 watching later little time consider worth looking website imagine glad jump call quick call questions explore love fun exciting call neuroscience scripture Jesus lasting real lasting jazzes talk want lives changed privileged thankful connected guys brother Scott Scott podcast before went program January similar sure differences deep dive tremendous experience boys good thing going Yes Thank Ryan wrap thank joining Dr Macon privilege appreciate giving time welcome enjoy being Ryan Take care concludes show name Ryan Franklin Thank joining Christian Leader Made simple podcast
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